Help with water report

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

boicutt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Messages
214
Reaction score
7
I've done my chemistry courses too long ago to remember everything and a lot of it has been lost. These are straight forward but two of them have me scratching my head.

This is what I have as info:

Calcium: 32mg/l
Sodium: N.D
Chlorine (out of filtration plant): 0.60 mg/l (same as chloride for calculations?)
Sulfate: 30 mg/l

These two I need help understanding:
Magnesium was outputted as 20 mg/l Caco3 (why?)
I asked for Bicarbonate as well in the report but was given a report on alkalinity: 84 mg/l

I want to get to all grain eventually and I want to make sure I understand something before I just jump into it, that's the way I am. So, am I missing anything to help my water chemistry for mashing/sparging?

Thanks a bunch! :mug:
 
Chlorine is not the same as chloride. Assuming that they tested for sodium, the ND is "not detected" within the limits of their testing method. It's curious that they reported Ca in its basic ionic concentration and then reported Mg as CaCO3. In any case, it is an easy conversion from 'as CaCO3' to its ionic concentration. The Water Report Input page of the Bru'n Water program has that conversion. There is also a conversion for alkalinity to bicarbonate too.
 
I asked for Bicarbonate as well in the report but was given a report on alkalinity: 84 mg/l

If you put 100 mg of CaCO3 in a beaker with 1 L of water and then bubble CO2 through the beaker until the pH of the water reaches 8.3 and then send that water off to an analyst requesting an alkalinity report he will take the liter of water and add 1 N strong (hydrochloric or sulfuric) acid to it until the pH is 4.3 and then tell you how many mL of acid it took to get there. The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100 so there is 1 millimole of CaCO3 in the beaker. It reacts with the CO2 by CO2 + H2O + CaCO3 --> 2HCO3- + Ca++ IOW 2 mmoles of bicarbonate ion are produced. When the analyst adds the strong acid its protons react with the bicarbonate ions to produce CO2:

2H+ + 2HCO3- --> 2CO2 +2 H2O

At pH 4.3 nearly all the bicarbonate is converted and as the equation shows to convert the 2 mmoles of HCO3- takes 2 mmoles of H+. Normal (1 N) acid contains 1 millimole of H+ per CC so 2 mL would be required. When the analyst tells you it took 2 mL of acid to reach pH 4.3 he is telling you that the alkalinity is 2 mmol. When talking about charged ions chemists often speak of 'equivalence' which is the number of moles of charge. Normal (1N) means there is 1 mmol of hydrogen ion charge in the acid. If it is HCl there is one hydrogen ion per molecule of HCl so the strength of the acid is one mole per cc. If the acid is H2SO4 then there are two hydrogen ions per molecule so the concentration is 2 mmol/cc. That's why equivalence is used. We don't need to know what the acid is - only the hydrogen ion charge per cc.

So the alkalinity of your water is 2 cc normal acid. Everywhere else in the world this would be reported to you as '2 milliequivalents per liter'. In the US water industry it is traditional to specify not the true alkalinity but the amount of calcium carbonate from which it came given that this was dissolved by CO2. This is done because in most natural waters that is the mechanism by which limestone dissolves. Thus we take the true alkalinity (2 mEq/L) and multiply by 50 and report the alkalinity as '100 mg/L as CaCO3'. This has resulted in lots of confusion to many people but its like measuring distances in feet, yards and miles. That's how we do it and just as there is a fixed conversion between the metric and English systems (one inch is exactly 2.54 cm) there is a fixed conversion between mEq/L and ppm as CaCO3 i.e. 50.

Now on to the calcium. Our 1 mmol/L CaCO3 releases 1 mmol of Ca++ ions at pH 8.3 but as the charge is plus 2 on each calcium ion that is 2 mEq/L. Again we multiply by 50 and say that the 'calcium hardness' of this water we made is 100 ppm as CaCO3. In summary: add 100 mg limestone to 1 L of water and dissolve with CO2 continuing exposure to CO2 until pH 8.3 is reached and you have water with alkalinity of approximately (there are some details I've glossed over) 100 ppm as CaCO3 and hardness of exactly 100 ppm as CaCO3.

Magnesium was outputted as 20 mg/l Caco3 (why?)
Were on a roll here. Now lets put 1 mmol of magnesium carbonate in a beaker, add the liter of water and do the same thing with CO2. When we get to pH 8.3 we again have 2 mmol (2 mEq) bicarbonate but now 1 mmol (2 mEq) Mg++ ion. Clearly then the alkalinity is again 2 mEq/L (100 ppm as CaCO3) and now the magnesium hardness is 2 mEq/L which we again, multiply by 50, giving 100 ppm as CaCO3. So the answer to 'why?' is that this is the way that we report ion concentrations for bicarbonate, carbonate, magnesium and calcium in the US.

You noted that you had asked for bicarbonate but got an alkalinity report. Labs don't measure bicarbonate. They measure alkalinity (as described above). To measure bicarbonate is much more difficult than the simple test I described. In most natural (and all potable) water at pH that meets WHO standards the only weak acid is carbonic and we can look at the water we made earlier with its 100 ppm as CaCO3 alkalinity and note that it had 2 mmol of bicarbonate in it. As the molecular weight of bicarbonate ion is 61 we can then say that the bicarbonate content of this water is approximately 2*61 = 122 mg/L. It is fortuitous that a couple of mathematical effects cancel one another such that this approximation is good between pH's of say 5.5 and 8.3 or so. Above 8.3 some of the alkalinity comes from hydroxyl ions and it falls down. So if your water isn't too weird take alkalinity, divide by 50 and multiply by 61 to get and estimate of bicarbonate. Note that water calculations are done with alkalinity numbers - not bicarbonate. Some of the spreadsheets don't make this important distinction. We had a guy on here wondering why, when he added lime (calcium hydroxide) to RO water (no bicarbonate), his spreadsheet showed the water had a lot of bicarbonate in it.

So, am I missing anything to help my water chemistry for mashing/sparging?

Yes, a whole lot but everyone starts out that way. Full understanding takes quite an investment in time and effort as perhaps just this discussion illustrates.
 
Thanks for the detailed response! I understand a bit more than I use to thanks to the reponse! I finally got a detailed response... still missing some info. But anyone want to chime in or should I just drop the tap water and go straight for RO/Distilled Water.

Total Alkalinity 82.2
Aluminum 0.0276
Ammonia Nitrogen 0.013
Calcium 32
Chloride 15.26
Conductivity (uS/cm) 250.9
Color (UCV) 1
Copper 0.037
Hardness Cal. (mg/l CaCO3) 100
Hardness Mag. (mg/l CaCO3) 20
Total Hardness (mg/l CaCO3) 120
Iron 0.1179
Fluorides 0.289
Manganese 0.0225
Nitrates 0.513
pH 7.488
Phosphates 0.081
Sulfate 25.81
Temp. 8.7
Turbidity 0.04163
 
Input these numbers into one of the calculators and start playing with the profiles. The only thing I don't know about is the iron. Brewing has a low threshold but I don't know the number since it isn't a concern for me. Other than that it looks like you decent brewing water.
 
But anyone want to chime in or should I just drop the tap water and go straight for RO/Distilled Water.

You can do either. Life will be simpler with RO for certain. It is clear from your water authority numbers that there is variability in your water (calcium, for example is reported as 32/20 = 1.6 mEq/L = 80 ppm as CaCO3 while calcium hardness is listed at 100 ppm as CaCO3) and that the numbers reported are averages. RO removes 95+ % of the ions in the water and 95+ % of the variation as well. You always know what you are starting with and what you are getting when you use RO.

OTOH if you use RO there are water treatment techniques (useable with this water) that you will never learn.

This is actually pretty nominal water. Enough sauermalz (or other acid) to overcome the fairly modest alkalinity and you should be able to brew many typical beers.

Total Alkalinity 82.2
Aluminum 0.0276
Ammonia Nitrogen 0.013
Calcium 32
Chloride 15.26
Conductivity (uS/cm) 250.9
Color (UCV) 1
Copper 0.037
Hardness Cal. (mg/l CaCO3) 100
Hardness Mag. (mg/l CaCO3) 20
Total Hardness (mg/l CaCO3) 120
Iron 0.1179
Fluorides 0.289
Manganese 0.0225
Nitrates 0.513
pH 7.488
Phosphates 0.081
Sulfate 25.81
Temp. 8.7
Turbidity 0.04163
 
You can do either. Life will be simpler with RO for certain. It is clear from your water authority numbers that there is variability in your water (calcium, for example is reported as 32/20 = 1.6 mEq/L = 80 ppm as CaCO3 while calcium hardness is listed at 100 ppm as CaCO3) and that the numbers reported are averages. RO removes 95+ % of the ions in the water and 95+ % of the variation as well. You always know what you are starting with and what you are getting when you use RO.

OTOH if you use RO there are water treatment techniques (useable with this water) that you will never learn.

This is actually pretty nominal water. Enough sauermalz (or other acid) to overcome the fairly modest alkalinity and you should be able to brew many typical beers.

You clearly know what you are talking about. They are averages, and some are pretty off from one month to the other. He sent me the chart for the past year (2013). IE: Sulfate went from 42 to 5.1 from Jan-March then back up to 37 in August.

Is it bad to work with water the fluctuates that much? What if I can't get the sodium levels. He says he doesn't have that info for me.

When you're in Quebec, teach me your ways? ;)
 
Back
Top