Help with Water Profile low SRM beers

[Lodovico]

I've been wrestling with water chemistry for a while, and just when I think I've got something figured out, I read another thing that throws me off. I would love to get people's thoughts on my local water and the questions I have. Here are my tap water numbers:

Calcium: 88 (ppm)
Magnesium: 9
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 200
Sodium: 18
Chloride: 40
Sulfate: 56
pH: 7.5

My water turns out to be pretty solid for darker beers (porters, stouts, really anything over 18 SRM, but I'm wondering the best way to adjust this profile for lighter colored beers, and especially how to do this in lighter colored beers that are high in IBUs. I'm trying to find the right balance for the mash pH and to keep the bitterness "soft" in styles like an IPA.

So I'm making a Saison later today. I'll tell you what I'm planning to do with this water profile based on the numbers above. The SRM of this beer is a 4 or 5. I'm shooting for a Residual Alkalinity of around -30.

I'm planning on diluting my mash water by 75% with distilled and adding 5 grams of gypsum and 5 grams of calcium chloride. (this is an 11 gallon batch).

This brings my adjusted numbers for the mash to:

Calcium: 106
Magnesium: 2
Alkalinity as CaCO3: 50
Sodium: 5
Chloride: 90
Sulfate: 106
Effective Hardness: 77
Residual Alkalinity: -27
Est. SRM Low: 3
Est. SRM High: 8
Sulfate to Chloride Raitio: Balanced

Am I in the right ballpark? If not, please tell me how you would make adjustments to my water. Also, how would you go about treating this water for an IPA with an SRM of 10 or 12 and 60-70 IBU's. Thanks in advance!

 

[pcampo]

I think you are on the right track.
Are you using Brun water?

You can also use 100% distilled water and then add some minerals. I find that easier for very low SRM beers.

Also, Why not use some lactic acid in combonation with Calcium chloride to bring down the pH? Thats what I do, so that i dont use soo much Calcium chloride and jack up those numbers to high.

I have also read on this forum, that the sufate to chloride ratio is not factual. Im not sure myself, maybe some others can chime in on it...I personally dont worry too much about it.

 

[Yooper]

I'd ditch the gypsum- you don't want much sulfate in that beer, and the Ca is plenty high without it. Chloride of 50-70 is fine, no need to go higher. "Less is more" really applies, and as you're diluting with RO water, I'd keep the benefits of a less mineralized water and not add stuff to it unless needed.

Shoot for a mash pH of 5.4-5.6.

 

[Yooper]

For an IPA (another question in your post), shoot for a mash pH of 5.4, and use some gypsum to get your sulfate to where you want it. For many hoppy beers, I like a sulfate level of 150 ppm, but some other brewers go as high as 300 ppm sulfate. Make sure you keep the chloride level low, to avoid a "mineral" taste in the beer.

Forget someone ever said the words "chloride sulfate ratio"! Here's why. Say I have water with a chloride level of 25, and a sulfate level of 50. That's 1:2, but it's low mineral content. But if you had a chloride level of 150 and a sulfate level of 300, you'd have the same ratio but the beer would be nearly undrinkable. So look at the totals, and in all cases keep the chloride level under 100 ppm, and often lower, and adjust the sulfate as needed to your taste and the beer style. The ratio is NOT significant when you think about it, but the actual content is.

 

[mabrungard]

Wow, that is some fairly hard and alkaline water. Neutralizing the alkalinity is the primary need when brewing pale beers. Given the alkalinity level, you are likely to have a taste impact from the acid addition. That taste impact can be reduced by using phosphoric acid.

One thing I see is that this water is fairly well suited to treatment by pre-boiling or lime softening. Both treatments will reduce both the calcium and alkalinity levels. By calculation, it appears that pre-boiling could reduce the bicarbonate content from its current 244 ppm to about 70 ppm and the calcium would drop from 88 ppm to about 30 ppm. That might be something you should consider.

The sulfate and chloride levels are modest and can be suited to many styles. You may want to cut those levels for some styles by RO or distilled water addition.

 

[Lodovico]

Thanks for all of the feedback. It was helpful.

I have another question. I want to do a Kettle Soured Berliner Weisse this weekend, and the recommended pH for the mash is 4.8 Given my water profile and how drastically far down I need to come, what would you suggest is the best way to do it? It's way too much aciduated malt to do it that way, and I'm struggling to find what the best options would be. Thanks!

 

[ajdelange]

'Kettle Soured' suggests that lactic acid will be added in the kettle. Weyermann implies that you can add sauermalz to the mash. See http://www.weyermann.de/dk/faq.asp?umenue=yes&idmenue=62&sprache=2 (be sure to scroll down far enough). They also say it is perfect for addition to kettle. Adding malt to the kettle? As long as you have a hop back I guess that's OK. My concern with adding it to the mash is that the mash pH will be out of the range we normally consider acceptable for conversion and good flavor. But I have never followed this recipe. Adding it (or most of it) to the kettle or using lactic acid in the kettle would get around that objection. But in any case, they say 8% is enough to do the job. 'Way to much' is based on additions below that which would produce lactic acid flavor. In a Weiße that's exactly what you are looking for!

 

[Lodovico]

'Kettle Soured' suggests that lactic acid will be added in the kettle. Weyermann implies that you can add sauermalz to the mash. See http://www.weyermann.de/dk/faq.asp?umenue=yes&idmenue=62&sprache=2 (be sure to scroll down far enough). They also say it is perfect for addition to kettle. Adding malt to the kettle? As long as you have a hop back I guess that's OK. My concern with adding it to the mash is that the mash pH will be out of the range we normally consider acceptable for conversion and good flavor. But I have never followed this recipe. Adding it (or most of it) to the kettle or using lactic acid in the kettle would get around that objection. But in any case, they say 8% is enough to do the job. 'Way to much' is based on additions below that which would produce lactic acid flavor. In a Weiße that's exactly what you are looking for!

Whoa, whoa. I must have not been clear here somewhere. Sorry. Kettle Souring can also mean pitching your bugs after lautering. For best pH results using this method in the kettle, I need my MASH pH to be around 4.8, and I'm just asking what you think the best way to get my water profile down to 4.8 in the mash BEFORE I move it to the kettle. The grist bill is obviously very light in color and is just pils and wheat.

This mash pH is what encourages good foam formation and retention later on. Here's a link discussing this tip from Burghard Hagen Meyer from Research Institute in Berlin:

http://sourbrewster.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/berliner-weisse-the-old-time-kettle-souring-technique/

 

[ajdelange]

OK. Got it. Given that you are going to further sour the wort with lactic acid (primarily even if a heterofermentive strain is used) in the kettle and that lactic acid is a desired flavor in this beer I would think that lactic acid, sauermalz or sauergut would be the best ways to set mash pH though any acid (phosphoric, hydrochloric, sulfuric) could be used.

 

[Lodovico]

OK. Got it. Given that you are going to further sour the wort with lactic acid (primarily even if a heterofermentive strain is used) in the kettle and that lactic acid is a desired flavor in this beer I would think that lactic acid, sauermalz or sauergut would be the best ways to set mash pH though any acid (phosphoric, hydrochloric, sulfuric) could be used.

Ok, thanks a lot. Is there an amount of Lactic acid that you would consider to be too much?? Like an amount that could have a negative impact on the mash or beer?? If I don't make any other adjustments (like cutting the mash water amount with some distilled water), I will need A LOT of lactic acid, and I'm just wondering about your thoughts on that. thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

Well 4.8 is a pretty long way to haul a base malt even from even a relatively low DI mash pH like Weyermann's pneumatic malt's 5.6. It would take about 21% sauermalz to get there or approximately 1.9 ml of 88% lactic acid per pound of base malt. That is a lot of acid but then you need a lot of acid if you want mash pH that low. Whether this is too much or not is going to depend on the pH of the finished beer i.e. how much additional acid the pitched lactos will add. As almost all the acid in the finished beer is going to be lactic the amount of lactic ion flavor will be dependent on the pH. This is all terra incognita to me so I would advise trying to find someone who has made a Weiße using this method. The other thing you might try is dosing some neutral megaswill beer with lactic acid to various levels of pH and recording your taste impressions as you go.