Help with water amounts on IPA.

[RobBug]

I am getting ready to brew the Dogfish Head 90min IPA. I need some help with the mash/sparging steps.

I have an 8 gallon brew kettle (7.5 effective boiling) and a 10 gallon square/tall cooler as a mash tun (preheated).

Beersmith is telling me the following: (I did tweak the numbers)

Total grain weight is 18.5 lbs
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Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 18.16 lb
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Double Infusion, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 16.34 qt of water at 132.1 F 122.0 F
60 min Saccrification Add 9.08 qt of water at 207.4 F 149.0 F
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Drain Mash Tun
Batch Sparge Round 1: Sparge with 1.20 gal of 185.0 F water
Batch Sparge Round 2: Sparge with 1.20 gal of 185.0 F water
Batch Sparge Round 3: Sparge with 1.20 gal of 185.0 F water
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Are the water amounts in the sparge steps too little? I am concerned that I won't get a good rinse on the grains. Granted I will measure actual collected first runnings and recalculate available volume when I get to that step.

2. The ratio of grains to water on the protein rest is 0.9 qt/lb. Is that to little for a protein rest?

3. The saccrification step is at 1.4 qt/lb at 207F. Is that temp too high on initially adding (it calculates to final temp of 149F)?

Thanks for any help.

Rob

 

[ajf]

I think you are trying to do something that is not possible with your equipment and methods.
You say you are using over 18 lbs grain to brew a nominal 5g batch.
That is a lot of grain
In order to mash that grain, you need a lot of strike water, and each extra gallon of strike water you use, reduces the amount of sparge water you can use by 1 gallon.
Simply put, you are using an amount of grain, that you cannot sparge effectively without overflowing your kettle.
I would reduce the amount of grain in the mash to a level that you have successfully sparged before, and make up he gravity deficit by adding extract.

-a.

 

[Yooper]

I think you are trying to do something that is not possible with your equipment and methods.
You say you are using over 18 lbs grain to brew a nominal 5g batch.
That is a lot of grain
In order to mash that grain, you need a lot of strike water, and each extra gallon of strike water you use, reduces the amount of sparge water you can use by 1 gallon.
Simply put, you are using an amount of grain, that you cannot sparge effectively without overflowing your kettle.
I would reduce the amount of grain in the mash to a level that you have successfully sparged before, and make up he gravity deficit by adding extract.

-a.

Why the protein rest? I wouldn't do a protein rest on a 90 minute IPA recipe.

I'd mash with 1.25 quarts per pound of grain (22.5 quarts or 5.62 gallons- call it 5.75 gallons) with a single infusion at the saccrification rest temperature. You'd get 3.5 gallons of first runnings, more or less, and then can sparge with 3.5 gallons to get to your boil volume. Your efficiency will be low, because of the lack of sparge water but you should be able to do it. As long as you don't bother with a protein rest, which is really not necessary for that beer anyway and possibly even detrimental to the beer.

 

[ajf]

Why the protein rest? I wouldn't do a protein rest on a 90 minute IPA recipe.

I'd mash with 1.25 quarts per pound of grain (22.5 quarts or 5.62 gallons- call it 5.75 gallons) with a single infusion at the saccrification rest temperature. You'd get 3.5 gallons of first runnings, more or less, and then can sparge with 3.5 gallons to get to your boil volume. Your efficiency will be low, because of the lack of sparge water but you should be able to do it. As long as you don't bother with a protein rest, which is really not necessary for that beer anyway and possibly even detrimental to the beer.

I agree with the comments about the protein rest, but sparging with 3.5g sparge water will not get anywhere near the required OG of 1.088.
Making up the deficit with extract, will get you to the required OG.

-a.

Ignore this post. It is rubbish. With enough grain, you can achieve the required OG.

 

[RobBug]

Thanks for the replies. I probably will kill the protein rest. I may adjust my final boil volume from 6.5 gallons to 7.5 and see how that goes. I kinda figured I would be light on the rinsings. I'm pretty much committed at this point.

Makes me want to kick myself for not getting my keggle project done. Oh well, roll with the punches and see what I get. I will post back here for future reference sake.

Again thanks for the replies and confirmation of my "gut" feel.

 

[ajf]

And I'm an idiot (or I've been drinking too much)
Yooper is 100% correct. With that amount of grain, you're efficiency will be low, but there's no reason why you couldn't achieve your gravity if you use enough grain.
The protein rest is only necessary for under-modified malts, which translates to a very small percentage of Pilsner malts, and mashing a bit thicker would leave you a bit more water for sparging, and thus help to increase your efficiency.
1.25 qt per lb is a reasonable thickness for an American beer, but I wouldn't go much thicker than that.

Sorry for giving you some wrong information.

-a.

 

[RobBug]

Well the brew day is done. Nuff said.

1. I missed my initial temp. Too low. Added hot water until I ended up with about 149F at 2qts/lb grain ratio. Ok not bad.

2. Drained 6 gals into pot on first runnings. Uh oh. Sparge 1.5 gals. Brew pot full and wort is still looking real dark and tasty

3. OG is 1.066 - target is 1.079. grrr.

4. Buddy chips in and runs to his house to grab 15gal kettle. ((Rule 1 - brew with friends if possible - they may get you out of a bind).

5. I sparge with 2 more gallons. 2nd and 3rd runnings. Gravity out of last sparge was 1.030 - at this point I am to roused to care. 9 gallons in the pot. Oh boy.

6. Propane leak on main regulator. Scramble to get second burner online. AAccck!

7. Kick up flame to super high (hey it's a 15 gal kettle - boil over? pfft)

8. Boil over. FFFUuuuuuuuu.

9. Boil down to 8 gals and start hop additions.

10. Smooth sailing.

11. Measure liquid level at 80 mins. 5 gals with one gal loss in equipment. REALLY??!! fffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.

12. Take gravity to be sure. 1.120 - barley wine territory. Oh wow. Ya need to top kettle.

13. Add top off for 6 gals to get 5 into carboy.

14. Drain to carboy. Buddy notices that there is a piece of hamburger in the false bottom. WTF??!!! Oh ya I tossed a burnt hamburger into the yard during the shortly after the OH CRAP moment with the volumous wort and kettle scramble. SOMEHOW a piece disengaged itself from the main patty and lobbed itself into the wort. Murphy. So I now dubbed the 90 min IPA to Reboil Dogfish Hamburger Head 90 min propane leak IPA.

14. FG - 1.081 - target 1.088. Check in my book.

15. In that chaos forgot the irish moss. grrrr.

16. Pitched at correct temp and rate. Noticed a ton of trub in the carboy - looks like a loss of about 1 gal

17. Drank my 5th or 6th house ale. RDWHAHB. What a day!

Max looks to me and says if the beer comes out super stupid awesome I have to add an oz of burnt hamburger to it next time I brew it.

I broke two cardinal rules while brewing today. 1 - I drank way too much during the brew (but it may have made it much much less stressful so that is a benifit heheh). 2 - multiple distractions like grilling out when I am doing a new brew.

I had a blast today. I care but at this point it really is a moot issue to worry too much. I will post back here in a month when I crack the first bottle for a quick taste test.

Thanks for the advice. I now have a 15 gal blichmann kettle on loan in my garage just for this problem

Rob

 

[Yooper]

Hahaha- it sounds like a great day.

I never drink when I brew- and I still have had some "oh ****" moments! I have a scar on my left boob due to being scalded by the return hose on my MLT. And it's not a new system!

My first brew of the day is usually during chilling, but even then I manage to screw that up too.

I've had so many weird instances that I thought I had experienced them all. But I can honestly say that I have never had a hamburger in my wort. Dog hair, cat hair, my hair, a child's sneeze, a screwdriver, my hat (don't ask), a complete airlock (found after primary), pieces of my false bottom assembly, the whole package of yeast (the package, not just the yeast), a pair of scissors, and various other things. But never ever have I had hamburger in my wort. You win the "weird ingredient" contest!!!!!!

Glad it was such a fun day for you.

 

[Corey_James]

WOW!! Rob you take the cake on interesting brew day!! Wish I could have been there.

 

[RobBug]

Thanks heheh. I was also in the process of "instructing" an extract brewer on the "ease" of all grain. Ya bad move to pick a multi-step IPA of this complexity. He did learn that even when mistakes happen - a brew in one hand while combating the casualty in the other evens things out to enjoyable.

I think when everything is going wrong, how one reacts and corrects or deals really teaches more than everything going super smooth. We all had fun and it was educational.

I had a full 5 gal of my house ale on tap. I think I have half left now so that says a lot. Either the day was goin so bad all three of us had to drink copious amounts of beer - OR - my previous brew was that tasty