Help with too much calcium chloride in a Samsh beer!

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Aref

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Hi,
I made my first smash beer last week with:
5 kg of vienna malt
20 gr of Perle hops
25L RO filtered water, TDS 10ppm, PH7
k97 yeast

After adding the grains the ph dropped to 4.8
I added calcium chloride to bring it up, but nothing changed. Then added more and more (AROUND 15 gr) and didn't realise that it might be harmful.
At the boiling process, the ph reached around 5 and the OG was about 1.046
Is there any way to save this batch?
Now it's fermenting so strong.
Thanks
 

mabrungard

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It's impossible to remove ionic content from a beer...without ruining the beer. I would just let the beer ferment and carbonate and then taste the chilled beer to see if its palatable. If it is, great. Take that example to help calibrate your palate to the effect of calcium chloride and either avoid that in the future or...do it again!
 

Holden Caulfield

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After adding the grains the ph dropped to 4.8
I added calcium chloride to bring it up
BTW, did you add Calcium Chloride (CaCl) or did you mean Calcium Carbonate (Chalk or CaCO3)?

CaCl will actual lower your PH (make more acidic). Chalk will raise your PH, but it does not dissolve well and is not recommended for raising PH especially once mashing has commenced. Baking soda (NaHCO3) is a very effective buffer and will raise PH quickly and easily.

Also, per your post, it appears that you did not add salts to the RO water prior to mashing, which is important to build a good water profile for your mash that has the right minerals and will hit the target PH range. Salts are typically not added once mashing starts as they need to dissolve.

In addition, all Vienna malt in RO water should result in a too high PH, probably in the 5.65 range, so something does not make sense, either you added acid or your PH meter was off. Did you use strips, they are notoriously inaccurate?

Martin, who responded to this post has a great site and tool "Bru'n Water" that can help you understand water chemistry and determine the salts and acid additions to hit the right mineral PPMs and PH for your grain bill.
 
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VikeMan

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After adding the grains the ph dropped to 4.8
I added calcium chloride to bring it up, but nothing changed.
Just FYI for the future: Calcium Chloride doesn't increase mash pH. It decreases it. But...

5 kg of vienna malt
20 gr of Perle hops
25L RO filtered water, TDS 10ppm, PH7
k97 yeast

After adding the grains the ph dropped to 4.8
100% Vienna malt and RO water should have landed somewhere north of 5.6 pH. What kind of meter are you using and when was it last calibrated with fresh buffers?
 
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Aref

Aref

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Thanks for responds,
I don't know why it turns so acidic.
I use a hanna hi98129 ph meter and calibrated it before this brewing.
I used a CaCo3 and it increased the ph when I checked it in different glass of worth , but after adding it to the mashing kettle nothing changed!

I don't know any mineral profile for this smash beer and I didn't add any salt or acid. I got the calcium chloride as a ph riser! also got Lactic acid and Citric acid for lowering the ph.
 
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Aref

Aref

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It's impossible to remove ionic content from a beer...without ruining the beer. I would just let the beer ferment and carbonate and then taste the chilled beer to see if its palatable. If it is, great. Take that example to help calibrate your palate to the effect of calcium chloride and either avoid that in the future or...do it again!
Thanks,
So it's a matter of taste rather than health?
Someone recommended to not drink it or at least add another 40 liter of the same recipe to this before carbonation!
 
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Aref

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There is something I should mention..
This time I added two new metal items in the kettle which might effect the Ph.
An aluminium heating element to stablize my worth tempreture. Also added (kind of metal with chrome cover. Couldn't find the steel one) false bottom stand for the grain's bag to keep it higher than the output valve in order to let the pump circulate the worth.
There was a scrach on chrome stand. I don't know if those metals changed anything.
 

VikeMan

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I use a hanna hi98129 ph meter and calibrated it before this brewing.
If it was in fact calibrated with fresh buffers, then there's something wrong with the meter. I'd bet a paycheck that any Vienna malt in RO water could not have truly had a pH of 4.8. I mean, that would even be a stretch if something like CaraVienne (which is not actually a Vienna malt) was accidently substituted.
 

marc1

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Also, although there is some argument about it, the mash pH people shoot for is generally accepted as the "final" mash pH, which happens 30 minutes in or so. The pH will be changing on its own before that.
Commonly, we'll use experience and/or software to calculate additions for mash pH and flavor, and then see how we did. If off, by the time the pH is stable and measured, it's too late to change for the mash, so we can make changes for next time.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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10^-4.8 ÷ 10^-5.6 = 6.31

At 4.8 pH water is 6.31 times more acidic than it is at 5.6 pH. That's a lot of extra acid to be accounted for.

'Pure' calcium chloride when added to water alone should not change its pH at all. Calcium chloride when added to malted or unmalted grain within the mash liberates H+ ions which acidify the mash. But even at an added 15 grams your mash pH should have been well above 4.8.
 
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Aref

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I tested the ph meter several times. Everytime works perfect.
There might be something wrong with the quality of my grains this time!
I bought the same ingredients from the same factory, but fresh to repeat the same recipe.
I am only concern about the health issue possibilities by drinking that beer.
 

marc1

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I tested the ph meter several times. Everytime works perfect.
There might be something wrong with the quality of my grains this time!
I bought the same ingredients from the same factory, but fresh to repeat the same recipe.
I am only concern about the health issue possibilities by drinking that beer.
CaCO3 is not Calcium Chloride, it's Calcium Carbonate. It can raise mash pH, but is very difficult to get completely dissolved so isn't recommended.

How did you test the pH meter?

What temperature are you testing the mash pH at?

Check your pH 30 minutes into the mash and see what you get. You could try it with a smaller proportional mixture of grains and water.
 
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VikeMan

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I tested the ph meter several times. Everytime works perfect.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, did you "test" (i.e. calibrate) with fresh buffer solutions?
 

cire

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Hi,
I made my first smash beer last week with:
5 kg of vienna malt
20 gr of Perle hops
25L RO filtered water, TDS 10ppm, PH7
k97 yeast

After adding the grains the ph dropped to 4.8
I added calcium chloride to bring it up, but nothing changed. Then added more and more (AROUND 15 gr) and didn't realise that it might be harmful.
At the boiling process, the ph reached around 5 and the OG was about 1.046
Is there any way to save this batch?
Now it's fermenting so strong.
Thanks
As already advised, what you report should not be.

5 kg of Vienna malt in 25 L of RO, TDS 10ppm and pH 7 will more likely have a pH of 5.8 than 4.8. Adding 15 gm calcium chloride dihydrate (CaCl2.2H2O) would produce levels of 163.5 ppm calcium and 288.5 ppm chloride, neither of which would be harmful to health. If you added 15 gm of calcium carbonate as suggested in a later posting, little would dissolve to have influence and ingesting it would be harmless.

If the additive was calcium chloride, the result would likely be to reduce pH of the mash by about 0.1 pH, while calcium carbonate would cause pH to rise slightly, dependent more upon surface area presented rather than added mass. At a mash pH of 4.8, sacrification takes in excess of an hour and can cause fermentability to be limited to result in higher FG and lower alcohol content.

I don't think there can be any risk in consuming the finished beer if all else has been done in a normal and safe manner. I do wonder if acid malt has been included with the Vienna.
 
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Aref

Aref

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Thanks again for your responses,
I kegged it after day 12 (fermented at 19.5˚C) and then crashed it around 7˚C for 12 more days and then carbonated under 35 psi for another day. The FG was about 1.020 (OG was 1.046). Also added a floating deeptube.
Yesterday tasted it! Although FG is high a bit, it taste fairly balance to me! I don't have any idea how this recipe should taste also never tried k97 before, but it taste good and nothing strange. Bitterness and sweetness seems right.
The additive was Calcium Chloride for sure and the ph meter was calibrated right. The only point is that I measured it while it was in the kettle around 67 degree celcius. I used to do it this way with no issue!

Before it gets too late and I finish this batch, I want to make it again to learn more about my mistakes.
What do you recommend to change? Water chemistry wise.
 
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Aref

Aref

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I forget to mention that I filtered it with 1 micron sediment filter and used floating deep tube in the keg, but the result is not so clear!
Any idea?
 

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marc1

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Thanks again for your responses,
I kegged it after day 12 (fermented at 19.5˚C) and then crashed it around 7˚C for 12 more days and then carbonated under 35 psi for another day. The FG was about 1.020 (OG was 1.046). Also added a floating deeptube.
Yesterday tasted it! Although FG is high a bit, it taste fairly balance to me! I don't have any idea how this recipe should taste also never tried k97 before, but it taste good and nothing strange. Bitterness and sweetness seems right.
The additive was Calcium Chloride for sure and the ph meter was calibrated right. The only point is that I measured it while it was in the kettle around 67 degree celcius. I used to do it this way with no issue!

Before it gets too late and I finish this batch, I want to make it again to learn more about my mistakes.
What do you recommend to change? Water chemistry wise.
This is a good starting place for easy water treatment:

After you mash in, let it go for 30-45 minutes then stir and pull a small sample to measure pH. Cool it down to room temp. Calibrate your meter with fresh buffers and then take a reading.

I forget to mention that I filtered it with 1 micron sediment filter and used floating deep tube in the keg, but the result is not so clear!
Any idea?
Could be chill haze? Let it sit cold for a couple few weeks and it should clear up; the floating dip tube will help pull the clear beer from the top first. And/or fine it with gelatin, which should help clear it up over several days.
 
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