HELP with Off Flavors/Aroma!

[derekcw83]

2 questions to rule out a possibility of my issues, you can see my other threads to see what I'm trying to fix in my beers. Particular with my IPA's

1. Can excessive grain debris left in my wort for boiling, cause off flavors later on after bottling??

2. Can exposure to air during sparging, cause grains to release tannins??

All of my IPA's bottle tasting AMAZING, and progressively diminish in flavor and aroma until no hoppy aroma and an overly bitter taste. A few stouts I've brewed have been perfect with age.

I continue to struggle with this issue and nobody seems to have a legit answer, even my LHBS

I have read threads on here with people experiencing a very similar change and even there, there are no real answers

 

[McKnuckle]

Your other thread deals with extract brewing and the dreaded "twang." This is about all-grain and having the same results? The stouts were all grain too but they're okay?

Hop aroma fades with time, but this effect is worsened by oxidation. However, an overly bitter unpleasant after taste can be the result of mashing with a high pH. This would be due to residual alkalinity in your brewing water. It is much more pronounced with light beers than dark ones, because higher-kilned and roasted malts in dark beers are acidic, and counteract the alkalinity.

What is your brewing water source? With extract you hardly need to worry about water composition, but it's very important with AG.

 

[derekcw83]

Yes they have similar results, maybe not near as bad. I tasted an old extract stout compared to an all grain stout tonight, 10x better, no more tartness, or extra sweetness.

Still a growing bitterness after bottling in the IPA's

What I can say with the temperature issue is that my early all grain brews were done stove top and temperature was extremely whack. All over the place, mostly too hot.

Now I mash in an igloo that keeps my temperature constant. And those brews I tried tonight and not much of an aging issue with bitterness.

The ph issue I haven't quite addressed. But temperature has been taken care of. If temperature was too high during mash, would I get this symptom during bottling? And again, will having too much grain debris during mash have a similar symptom?

 

[derekcw83]

Oh, I'm using publix spring water. Tonight I brewed another IPA with an equal mix of publix spring water and publix purified water.

 

[kadozen]

Ca+2 - 70 Mg+2 - 7 Na+ - 6 Cl- - 11 SO4-2 - 22 Alkalinity - 210(HCO3) pH - 7.85


Publix Spring water. This is where it's at for me, but if I'm not mistaken they use multiple sources, maybe 3. I could be wrong. This was found Here

 

[McKnuckle]

Well, there you go - an alkalinity (bicarbonate) of 210 is quite high.

A 5 gallon IPA with 10 lbs of grain, SRM roughly 7, OG in the high 50's... will give you an estimated mash pH in the 5.8 range, which is higher than optimal.

 

[derek8307]

Thank you for the input regarding PH and water quality, I am working on finding a good source for water going forward.

However my original questions have not been answered. I still would like to know if certain conditions during the mash would cause the symptoms in flavor and aroma I am getting? High mash temp? Excessive debris leftover going into boil? and exposing grains to air during sparge?

Should grains stay submerged for some reason related to tannins?

And do tannins cause the symptoms I am getting in my IPA's?

 

[McKnuckle]

I don't think anyone can answer that definitively, although I think it is pretty unlikely that the flavor/aroma problems are caused by grain. I think it is caused by high mash pH. Bitter, harsh flavor due to high mash pH is a known phenomenon.

Exposing grains to air during sparge sounds like a total non-issue (that always happens). How much grain is getting into your boil - "lots" or just a wee bit? Again, unless you have handfuls of it, that's just a non-factor in the final taste in my opinion.

 

[derek8307]

I filter it through fine cheesecloth before boiling, but I usually have around a few tablespoons of small debris as I pour it all into the kettle.

If the PH were my issue, would it show up after bottling like it is?

Again, prior to bottling, I have super high hopes, excellent hop presence, steadily declines after a couple of weeks in the bottle.

 

[derek8307]

Oh, and would high temps cause the same effect? My early stove top mashes regularly got above 165-170 for sustained periods, now I've switched to an igloo cooler.

 

[McKnuckle]

You can strain the mash run-off through a finer mesh filter if it's a consistent problem. Is it BIAB (getting through the bag)? Or are you not vorlaufing adequately using a traditional mash? (Or it sounds like it's a very small mash so you literally just pour the contents. You can improve that process for sure.)

The simplest cause of fading hop character is simply age. And that's usually age-induced oxidation, even if it's slight. Hop aroma compounds are delicate. So that's not going to occur on the hot side - it will be oxidation that occurred in the waning stages of fermentation, packaging, and storage.

The pH bitterness issue shows up after bottling because the beer is so green and muddled before that, you can't perceive anything anyway. Once flavors coalesce and most things drop out and clear, the flaws that can't drop out become evident.

 

[zwiller]

McKnuckle is spot on. Beer with a final pH which is high will oxidize much faster than typical. Polyphenol/tannin extraction during brewing is also much higher. Excess polyphenols plus high pH is a double whammy. Ditch that spring water and go with distilled or get your tap data, some acid, and learn BNW.

 

[derekcw83]

Ok I'm switching to distilled and picking up some Epsom, gypsum, and canning salt this afternoon, thanks

 

[kadozen]

Ok I'm switching to distilled and picking up some Epsom, gypsum, and canning salt this afternoon, thanks

Good call. I was using Publix Spring Water for awhile and had to ditch it. Zephyrhills is, from what I remember, good for an amber that leans to the slightly malty side straight from the bottle. I don't know about the rest of the local store brands, but that link I posted should have most of them.

Can't go wrong with distilled/RO though, check out Bru'n Water, and double/triple check all the numbers to you get used to water additions. I'd also recommend keeping the water chemistry chapter of How to Brew bookmarked for awhile

 

[derekcw83]

I'd like to just have a basic formula to add to each of my 5 gallon water jugs when I get them filled. Since my ipa's are my problem should I design my water to fit that, then be able to use the same water for all my styles without too many issues?

 

[McKnuckle]

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. I could explain why but it might be too technical for your interest level. That's okay. You could easily have two or three formulas that you use all the time, but literally ONE is a challenge. I think at a minimum, you need an approach for pale/dry, one for pale/malty, and one for dark beers. It's best done with each batch, not as pre-treatment to the water you accumulate for general brewing.

 

[TheHopfather]

I would think grain in the boil is not your issue, Brulosophy just did an experiment with this. Take these results for what you will, but at least its one experiment that seems to indicate a 'no' to your question.

http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/28/the-vorlauf-effect-pt-2-testing-the-extreme-exbeeriment-results/

McKnuckle most likely has the issue nailed for you, mash pH. If you aren't super interested in delving deep into water chemistry just yet a good place to start is the water primer by AJ deLange in the Brew Science forum. It is pretty basic but it should get you close to where you need to be.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Keep in mind that the most important thing you are looking to control with water chemistry is the mash pH. Nail your pH and you'll most likely end up with a nice beer. Try to keep oxygen exposure to a minimum when racking/bottling/kegging your IPA's and drink them sooner rather than later.

 

[zwiller]

+1; There's a slight learning curve but very worthwhile. Actually, it's one of my favorite parts about brewing.

From AJ's sticky in the Brewing Science area: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

From there download BNW (free) and read the Water Knowledge Tab.

In any event, using distilled with salts is going to get you a lot closer than you were before!

 

[hopbrad]

if your able to, keg your IPAs/hoppy beers. between that and water chemistry, your beer will improve a ton.

 

[derekcw83]

I ran across this last night on the web trying to look up howto brew with cocao. This is the most extensive guide I've ever seen regarding off flavors and aroma:

http://www.carolinabrewmasters.com/PDF/Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf