Help with hops

[LittleBroBrews]

looking at brewing an IPA as the next brew day would the following hop regime give me a good result for a 5 gallon IPA?

25g Amarillo @ First Wort
15g Pacific Jade @ 60min
15g Amarillo @ 10min
15g Pacific Jade @10min
25g Amarillo - Dry Hop 7 days

Or should I use a larger amount for each hop addition?

 

[Trail]

I dunno. Do you want it to be more bitter?

Even if someone wanted to give you a (meaningless, preference-based) answer, hop schedule is meaningless without information about the malt bill.

 

[LittleBroBrews]

I dunno. Do you want it to be more bitter?

Even if someone wanted to give you a (meaningless, preference-based) answer, hop schedule is meaningless without information about the malt bill.

Basically just wanting to know if this amount of hops will be enough for an IPA, not wanting to bitter but I want to hops to come through with fruity grapefruit etc. will I need to use more hops to get a better result.

 

[Trail]

Even if someone wanted to give you a (meaningless, preference-based) answer, hop schedule is meaningless without information about the malt bill.

How bitter the beer tastes is dependent on how malty it is. You might as well be asking "Is .5lb of sugar enough for cookies?" without telling us how many cookies you're making, how big the cookies are, or how sweet you like your cookies to be.

 

[beerandloathinginaustin]

Pacific Jade is not as citrusy as it smells. It's very weird artificial grape & white pepper. My buddy and I did an all Pac Jade IPA and bombed it with hops and it gave it much more of an English quality than we expected. As for your amounts, it'd help if we knew the IBU numbers you project. Then I could use something like Jamil's IPA recipe in Brewing Classic Styles to get a better idea of where you're at with them.

I like to use Jamil's book as a baseline for a lot of styles...even if I'm just comparing my grain bill and shooting for similar IBU numbers. He uses Rager for bitterness btw, which you have to switch to in BeerSmith (if you're using it).

 

[LittleBroBrews]

Here is the whole recipe. Aiming for smooth grapefruit aroma but floral also. Don't want it over the top bitter but enough for the IPA style and enough to make the drinker go back for more. Batch size is 5 gallons.

Grain:

3.5kg 2 row Pale malt
0.8kg Munich malt
0.4g Crystal 60l
0.5g Dextrose
______________________________________
Hops:

25g Amarillo @ First Wort
15g Pacific Jade @ 60min
15g Amarillo @ 10min
15g Pacific Jade @10min
25g Amarillo - Dry Hop 7 days
______________________________________
Yeast:

1 Pkg - Saf-ale S-05

 

[beerandloathinginaustin]

If you shoot for 35-40 IBU (Rager) for your bittering that'll usually get you enough bitterness but won't be over the top. Looks like you have a fairly sturdy malt bill.

If you want grapefruit, I'd dump that Pac Jade at 10m and go with more Amarillo, Simcoe, Chinook, Falconer's, Centennial, Cascade, etc. Those will all be a little more in line with the flavor you're looking for to differing degrees.

 

[LittleBroBrews]

I have never used Pac jade so am curious to use it. Have heard a lot of mixed reviews. Was thinking of changing the pacific jade to Pacifica what would thoughts be on that? I think it would work better with the Amarillo but I could be wrong.

Is the hop regime for this decent enough for a nice IPA or should I up the hops?

 

[beerandloathinginaustin]

Pacifica would work better in my opinion. It's grassy apricot probably blends well with Amarillo. Jamil's IPA is 1oz @ 10min, 1oz @5, 1oz @0...so if you want to amp it up I'd follow something like that.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Don't use amarillo for bittering, it really is a waste. I would save it for dry hopping or whirlpool/hop steep.

 

[RonPopeil]

Don't use amarillo for bittering, it really is a waste. I would save it for dry hopping or whirlpool/hop steep.

i knew someone would post this.

while this reply is preference based, a more subjective point of view would be that you could use a higher alpha hop to get the same IBU's without spending as much money. summit, nugget, horizon or even chinook are all good hops that could be dual use so you're not limited down the road.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I avoid summit because it tastes like onion to me. Although Amarillo is dual purpose and can be a bittering addition, it just isn't a good use of the hop. As far as I know, flame out additions of warrior don't taste very good (maybe that's something to try) and using that for bittering will save you money.

 

[RonPopeil]

I avoid summit because it tastes like onion to me. Although Amarillo is dual purpose and can be a bittering addition, it just isn't a good use of the hop. As far as I know, flame out additions of warrior don't taste very good (maybe that's something to try) and using that for bittering will save you money.

your not gonna taste it at 60 minutes.

 

[TheHairyHop]

At flame out, not 60. I'm guessing it'll be grassy or just flavorless, but I wouldn't know unless I tried. Going to Google it soon

 

[LittleBroBrews]

What about this then?

20g Amarillo @ 60min
25g Pacifica @ 30min
25g Pacifica @ 15min
25g Pacifica @ 5 min
10g Amarillo @ Flame out
25g Pacifica - Dry Hop 5 days

 

[brewmeister13]

Why the switch from FWH with Amarillo to 60 min? If you are looking for something that is bitter not not harsh, which is what it sounds like, I've found FWH to be extremely good at this. I just brewed an IPA with a calculated IBU of 90 by Rager and a friend who drinks mostly blondes and wheat beers even liked it. The actual bitterness perception is probably closer to Garetz projection (39.6), but the hop flavor and aroma are off the charts (I did use a total of 14 oz of hops though).

 

[LittleBroBrews]

I guess I'm afraid if creating a grassiness with the FWH and want the smooth profiling. Do you think I should keep Amarillo as FWH?

 

[brewmeister13]

I don't get any grassiness from either brew I've done FWH with. One thing to note, my IPA actually came out quite a bit less bitter than I wanted because of the FWH. I would use Garetz to estimate IBU when using FWH and go from there.

 

[LittleBroBrews]

Thanks brewmeister, so will change to

20g Amarillo First Wort
25g Pacifica @ 30min
25g Pacifica @ 15min
25g Pacifica @ 5 min
10g Amarillo @ Flame out
25g Pacifica - Dry Hop 5 days

Do you think 20g and 25g of each will be enough?

 

[LittleBroBrews]

And grain changed to

3.5kg Pale 2 Row
600g Wheat
225g Medium Crystal
225g Munich
500g Dextrose

 

[CA_Mouse]

My personal preference is to use something a bit more neutral for bittering, since you really aren't getting the aroma or flavor from them. If you have them or can get Magnum, I would use that for bittering. FWH is something that I just started doing, so my first observations are that they are a smoother bitterness without being biting. In this case I would substitute your FWH Amarillo for Magnum and use the Amarillo along with your Pacfica at Dry Hopping. Just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

 

[brewmeister13]

My personal preference is to use something a bit more neutral for bittering, since you really aren't getting the aroma or flavor from them.

With FWH you actually do get flavor and aroma from the hop you use. The flavor components bind with the malt and don't boil off as they would when added to a regular rolling boil.

 

[jakenbacon]

I would most definitely up the hops. Probably double them....At least...

 

[TheHairyHop]

With FWH you actually do get flavor and aroma from the hop you use. The flavor components bind with the malt and don't boil off as they would when added to a regular rolling boil.

I don't want to be rude, but I find this hard to believe. It doesn't make too much sense and from direct experience with brewing bitter wee heavies, I've never noticed actual hop flavor or aroma.

It's worth a controlled experiment though. Got to add that to the list

 

[Trail]

I don't want to be rude, but I find this hard to believe. It doesn't make too much sense and from direct experience with brewing bitter wee heavies, I've never noticed actual hop flavor or aroma.

It's worth a controlled experiment though. Got to add that to the list

I agree with you 100% - FWH doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me, chemically. It's one of those things where superstition's got a second wind despite the modern scientific amenities.

But if like, three more people tell me to try FWH I'll probably just go crosseyed and start believing it.

 

[thatjonguy]

I agree with you 100% - FWH doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me, chemically. It's one of those things where superstition's got a second wind despite the modern scientific amenities.

But if like, three more people tell me to try FWH I'll probably just go crosseyed and start believing it.

My four friends and I agree you should try it...

 

[TheHairyHop]

Well, there's been taste tests "proving" that FWH has a smoother bitterness, but I've only ever seen one source cited, which isn't enough for me to care. That being said, I use it for lighter beers just in case it's true.

 

[RonPopeil]

i didn't think it made a difference personally.

 

[LittleBroBrews]

I would most definitely up the hops. Probably double them....At least...

What would you suggest for hop addition amounts then?

 

[brewmeister13]

I don't want to be rude, but I find this hard to believe. It doesn't make too much sense and from direct experience with brewing bitter wee heavies, I've never noticed actual hop flavor or aroma.

It's worth a controlled experiment though. Got to add that to the list

I understand skepticism when it comes to internet posts in forums so no need to worry about being rude. The bit about how it works was taken from Mitch Steele's book on brewing IPA's. I thought I saw it in another book that I'd read too, but now can't remember. At any rate, a controlled experiment would be nice, and maybe I'll get around to it, but for now I'll blindly follow a top craft brewer's advice. From the beers I've used it in, I've definitely not found a detriment to using the technique over traditional bittering additions.

 

[brewmeister13]

What would you suggest for hop addition amounts then?

My best advice would be to look at other recipes, this is a good place to start http://wiki.homebrewersassociation.org/AHA-National-Homebrew-Competition-Winners-Circle (the recipes are tried and true), and see what others are doing with a particular style. Then balance what you want to accomplish with what you've seen working for others. Otherwise, you will get a lot of back and forth on what to do, due to the highly personal nature of our hobby. In the end the difference between FWH and traditional bittering additions isn't going to make or break the beer. Neither will moving .5 oz of hops from 15 min to flame out. After brewing a recipe once you can then go back and tweak it to better meet your desired outcome, but chances are the beer you brew will still be worth drinking while pondering what changes to make. Good luck.

 

[CA_Mouse]

With FWH you actually do get flavor and aroma from the hop you use. The flavor components bind with the malt and don't boil off as they would when added to a regular rolling boil.

I just did 3 different beers using FWHs, an IPA, a DCA and a Stout. the Stout had no other hop additions and there was no flavor imparted from the Cascade that I used. It has a very mellow or smooth bitterness from the hops, but nothing to tell that I used Cascade. So I will have to disagree with your assumption of flavor and aroma being added to the malt. Boiling will always remove those volatile and essential flavor and aroma oils from the wort.

 

[RonPopeil]

i'm gonna laugh in a few days when this guy is reading this thread while drinking this beer.