Help with all grain efficiency please!!

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Lumberg1

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Okay, I'm going to try to make this as not confusing as I can, but I'm not making any promises.

I've done a few AG batches now and I always seem to have really poor efficiency no matter what I do. So on my last batch I made sure to pay really close attention and record everything I did so maybe I could sit down and figure out where I'm going wrong. Here's the recipe I used for a 5.5 gal batch and the data I collected.

7.5lb 2 row
2lb victory
1.5lb dark munich
1lb honey malt
8oz crystal 80
4oz chocolate
3oz amber

Okay so I use a 48qt cooler mash tun with a ss braid. I used a 1.25qt/lb ratio and mashed for 60 min at 150 degrees. I collected 6.5 gal at a rate of 1qt/2min. My preboil gravity was 1.044 and my target was 1.049. There was a lot of wort still in the mash tun so I collected about 1.5gal in a bucket and checked the SG. It was still reading 1.028. I feel like that's alot of sugar to not have in the brew kettle but alas my kettle is only 7.5gal.
After the boil my SG was 1.058 witch was exactly what I was shooting for, but I had more boiloff then expected and ended up with just over 5gal. When I plug all this data into my brew software it says my efficiency is around 60%!

So I guess the question is... Is my efficiency really that bad or do I just need to get a larger kettle so I can collect more wort from the mash to hit my numbers?

Sorry if this is really confusing. It's really hard to type out what I'm thinking.
 
You left 1.5 gallons of wort in your cooler? Did you add that 1.5 gallons into the software? You need a bigger brew kettle.

I would mash closer to 1.4qt/LB
 
I wouldn't get too hung up worrying about your efficiency. Most recipes are based on 80%. Do you crush your own grain or does the LBHS do it? A lot of LBHS crushed grain ends up at around 60%. It could just be too much sparge water since you're having some left over. I mash thinner at around 1.5qt/lb, and compensate by using less sparge water. You shouldn't have any wort left over in the mast tun.
 
If you don't want to get another kettle just scale your recipe back to 5 gallons, or try doing a less vigorous boil to slow down the boil off.
 
Having water left in your mash tun doesn't hurt your efficiency if your fly sparging.

I finish sparging with 2 inches of water above my grain bed and always exceed 80%.

Mash @ 1.25 qt/lb.

If your batch sparging, research the methods described by Bobby M. He has great success with his methods.

If your fly sparging, I would make sure your mashing out @ 168+/- and then slow your sparge down.

Good luck,

Bull
 
How did you sparge? Fly or batch? With a SS braid your efficiency will suffer with fly sparging. The braid covers a very small area on the bottom of the cooler. Do you have a coil of hard wire inside your braid? If not the grain can crush the braid and it wont draw the wort from the entire bottom. Fly works good with a false bottom or a manifold that covers a large are of the bottom. Try to make a manifold out of PVC with holes drilled it it
or copper tube with slots cut in it with a hack saw. Make sure to turn the holes or cuts down so they draw from the lowest part of the bottom.

VB
 
jetmac said:
You left 1.5 gallons of wort in your cooler? Did you add that 1.5 gallons into the software? You need a bigger brew kettle.

I didn't add it back in because I didn't add it to the boil and I wasn't sure how that would effect the SG of the whole batch. I probably could have figured it out but that more math then I really wanted to do seeing as I wasn't using it.

I think I'm going to pick up a new kettle for my next brew.



bdupree said:
Most recipes are based on 80%. Do you crush your own grain or does the LBHS do it? A lot of LBHS crushed grain ends up at around 60%.

I set my software to 70% because I thought I would get at least that. Right now my LHBS does my crushing and I have read on here that was the case so I started a diy crusher but it's really hard to get the rollers perfectly true. So I think I'm gonna have to spring for a barley crusher when I get my new kettle! Right now my brewing buddies and I are on a strict brew schedule of 3-4 brews a month so hopefully I can get this sorted out soon!
 
You've got to explain more about your process from when the mash is over to when you have wort in the pot.

The first thing I'm assuming is that you're trying to fly sparge a smallish batch in a rectangular cooler and a braid as your separation medium. This is really less than idea. With that equipment, you should be batch sparging.

With sparge/lauter methods aside for a second, a 7 gallon pot is about 2 gallons too small. You can buy a new pot, you can scale back to 4.5 gallon batches, or you can collect 7 gallons preboil but use another pot to boil 2 gallons of it.
 
VegasBrew said:
How did you sparge? Fly or batch? With a SS braid your efficiency will suffer with fly sparging. The braid covers a very small area on the bottom of the cooler. Do you have a coil of hard wire inside your braid? If not the grain can crush the braid and it wont draw the wort from the entire bottom. Fly works good with a false bottom or a manifold that covers a large are of the bottom. Try to make a manifold out of PVC with holes drilled it it
or copper tube with slots cut in it with a hack saw. Make sure to turn the holes or cuts down so they draw from the lowest part of the bottom.

VB


I fly sparge now because I was under the impression that you got better effeiceny then when doing a batch sparge. I do have a hard wire coil running the length of the braid and I've never had a stuck sparge so I assume that it's working well.
 
It's got a lot more to do with fluid dynamics than whether the braid gets stuck. You have a shallow grain bed and too focused a collection point to combat an effect called "channeling". As the sparge goes down through the bed, it finds the easiest path to the braid and misses a lot of sugar.

In general your assumption is correct that fly sparging CAN be more efficient, but your particular setup will be MUCH more efficient if you batch sparge.


So just as an example with your last batch. 13lbs of malt, strike with 4.5 gallons (1.38qt/lb). After absorption, first runnings volume would be about 3.25 gallons. Now dump 3.5 gallons of 185F water into the mash tun, stir for 5 minutes, vorlauf and drain it all.
 
I have gotten up to 85% batch sparging. I have never tried fly sparging, but since you are only drawing out the braid, I am guessing that is part of the problem.

I split mine into two sparges, each with an equal amount of water. I figure I lose 1.5 gallons to absortion and deadspace. so I plan accordingly. 3.5 gallons to mash in. Drain completely with the valve wide open. mix in 3 gallons of sparge water stir like heck, wait 5-10 minutes. Drain. Repeat with 3 more gallons. I ususally gather 8 gallons or so, which makes for about 5.5 into the fermenter, while still leaving most of the hop gunk and hot break in the bottom of the kettle.
 
Bobby_M said:
You've got to explain more about your process from when the mash is over to when you have wort in the pot.

The first thing I'm assuming is that you're trying to fly sparge a smallish batch in a rectangular cooler and a braid as your separation medium. This is really less than idea. With that equipment, you should be batch sparging.

With sparge/lauter methods aside for a second, a 7 gallon pot is about 2 gallons too small. You can buy a new pot, you can scale back to 4.5 gallon batches, or you can collect 7 gallons preboil but use another pot to boil 2 gallons of it.

After the mash I did a fly sparge with 6 gal at 170 degrees.
So from what all you guys are saying I guess I should try batch sparging and get a larger kettle. I guess now I have an excuse to get some new equipment and to head down to the LHBS and pick up more grains!!
 
So I guess the question is... Is my efficiency really that bad or do I just need to get a larger kettle so I can collect more wort from the mash to hit my numbers?

I found when brewing 5 gallon batches in a 7.5 pot. You can mash thicker to lower the first running volume. That way there is more room for sparge.
 
Figure out how much water you need for the mash and the sparge.

PREBOL VOLUME + ( LBS GRAIN * %ABSORBTION ) = TOTAL WATER

(%ABSORBTION I USE IS 0.13 )

TOTAL WATER - [ ( QUARTS PER LB * LBS GRAIN ) / 4 ] = SPARGE
WATER

Then make sure that whatever mash water ratio you use will fit in your mash tun.
Subtract the mash water from the total water and then sparge with that.
If you decide to batch sparge try and keep the mash water and sparge water at as close to equal volumes as you can. If you batch sparge you can runoff the mash water measure how much you have and then add whatever you need as sparge water to hit your preboil volume. If you can't fit it all in your kettle you can collect the extra in something else and then add it incrementaly to the kettle while you are boiling. And to be on the safe side I always have some extra sparge water at the ready.
 
it's got a lot more to do with fluid dynamics than whether the braid gets stuck. You have a shallow grain bed and too focused a collection point to combat an effect called "channeling". As the sparge goes down through the bed, it finds the easiest path to the braid and misses a lot of sugar.

In general your assumption is correct that fly sparging can be more efficient, but your particular setup will be much more efficient if you batch sparge.


So just as an example with your last batch. 13lbs of malt, strike with 4.5 gallons (1.38qt/lb). After absorption, first runnings volume would be about 3.25 gallons. Now dump 3.5 gallons of 185f water into the mash tun, stir for 5 minutes, vorlauf and drain it all.

+1
 
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