help w NEIPA hops --- Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic +

[Panderson1]

Friend wants a juicy IPA keg for a party next month. 6.5 gal batch

Any experience with that combo? I have about 8oz of each

I also have a few OZ of El D and Idaho 7.

Just some Pilsner and Oats

 

[eliastheodosis]

Friend wants a juicy IPA keg for a party next month. 6.5 gal batch

Any experience with that combo? I have about 8oz of each

I also have a few OZ of El D and Idaho 7.

Just some Pilsner and Oats

What exactly are you looking for in terms of advice? Which hops to use with each other? How to use them together to build the hop schedule? Are you looking for advice on the malts or is that just informative? Happy to help but just wondering exactly what you want/need here.

My initial thoughts for the malts are that the pils and oats would be fine. Could you add more things? Sure. Do you really need to do that? No.

For the main three hops those all go together great. They are all crowd pleasers. El Dorado and Idaho 7 are also great in my opinion but I think you'll find more mixed opinions on them. You could use either with these other hops but at some point there will be too much noise in the beer for you to notice.

I would definitely use some Citra since it's for a party and almost everyone is going to like that. It's great to support other hops as well. Use one or both of the others in whatever amount suits you really. I just did a cold IPA with 50/50 Citra and Simcoe and it's great. I've done various combinations of all three and is really is hard to go wrong. Here's a thought for the hop bill using what you have.

1oz each Citra/Simcoe at 5 mins
2oz each Citra/Simcoe for 15 min hopstand
4oz each of Citra/Simcoe/Mosaic dry hop as krausen falls

Simcoe is a solid bittering hop too so you can drop some in at 60 mins to get the bitterness you want. It's such a great aroma hop that I'd save it if you have something else for bittering. If you don't want an ounce of Citra left over then just use it in the dry hop and drop an ounce of one of the others. Or just keep both if you want because I'm not your boss

 

[Panderson1]

Thanks. Sorry. I was overwhelmed earlier. I was just looking for random thoughts from anyone that's used that combo in the past. I don't brew hazy IPA very often. But now that i can close transfer, ill probably start more of them.

That hop schedule sounds great. Thanks for your thoughts. I'll just stick to those 3 hops.

Last time i did a smash(ish) with pilsner/mosaic (added oats) and loved it.

So now mosaic is the only true hop i know alone. The beers that i have brewed with mainly citra always taste like "straw". But other people love it. It's my pallet for sure.

Thanks.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Oh, no worries and absolutely no need to apologize Just trying to make sure my response and other responses are actually what you need.

Closed transfer definitely helps. Be very diligent about purging your lines and everything before hooking them up and it will be even better.

That hop schedule is not so much for a hazy specifically, but it should give you a pretty flavorful hop profile. It should work for you but others might have more/better info for you. If you're just learning your hop flavors then definitely keep the combinations more simple. You can still start to pick out the separate flavors with just a couple hops in there. Much more than that and it can be very tasty but...muddy.

Honestly, I have done combinations of all three of these and they are always great. Citra is not my favorite hop *gasp* but I think it's a great hop to help boost other hops. With about 25% or so in the hop bill it gives good supporting flavor but doesn't overwhelm the profile.

Keep brewing and keep learning! And remember that hops are an agricultural product. Not every carrot tastes the same and not every batch of Mosaic will taste the same either. Don't be surprised if you get slightly different flavors from different bags.

Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic (aka The Other Holy Trinity) can allegedly be found in the original Treehouse Orange Julius, so yeah, there should be plenty of experience around these parts. I recently brewed my 13th batch of that wonderful nectar and would recommend that combo to anyone looking to make an NEIPA...

Cheers!

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Go 70% pilsner and 30% oats, rice hulls a must.
I like to have a small bittering addition of simcoe at 60min, then use all 3 at 5 minutes and again in a whirlpool at 170f .. after that dryhop with 1.5oz per gallon .. the ratios aren't huge here, use them how you want, these hops play well together and will produce a great neipa. Leave the other hops out just to keep it simple so the hop flavors dont get muddled.

 

[Brooothru]

fwiw, Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic (aka The Other Holy Trinity) can allegedly be found in the original Treehouse Orange Julius, so yeah, there should be plenty of experience around these parts. I recently brewed my 13th batch of that wonderful nectar and would recommend that combo to anyone looking to make an NEIPA...

Cheers!

I've heard (and used) the phrase "Holy Trinity of Hops" to describe the combo of Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic. I suspect your descriptor, "the Other Holy Trinity", would result in a lower likelihood of me being struck down by lightning in this post-Mardi Gras season of the Church.

 

[eliastheodosis]

I've heard (and used) the phrase "Holy Trinity of Hops" to describe the combo of Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic. I suspect your descriptor, "the Other Holy Trinity", would result in a lower likelihood of me being struck down by lightning in this post-Mardi Gras season of the Church.

I almost called it the Holy Trinity in my first message. I will risk that lightning. If there is a god then I will surely need her forgiveness for much more than my devotion to Simcoe

 

[Brooothru]

I almost called it the Holy Trinity in my first message. I will risk that lightning. If there is a god then I will surely need her forgiveness for much more than my devotion to Simcoe

Let me hear an "AMEN!"

Simcoe, CTZ and Hallertau Magnum are my goto's for bittering, depending on the style being brewed.

Citra has pretty much displaced Cascade and Amarillo for my mid-to-late hops.

Mosaic is in a class by itself for flavor/aroma late/whirlpool additions for domestic ales and New World style beers, IMHO.

Otherwise, for the more traditional European beers (which are actually my jam) I'll stick with the Five Nobles and their more direct genetic offspring with a grain bill to match. But for more contemporary style beers, I always consider Simcoe, Citra and Mosaic as 1st String.

 

[k-daddy]

What exactly are you looking for in terms of advice? Which hops to use with each other? How to use them together to build the hop schedule? Are you looking for advice on the malts or is that just informative? Happy to help but just wondering exactly what you want/need here.

My initial thoughts for the malts are that the pils and oats would be fine. Could you add more things? Sure. Do you really need to do that? No.

For the main three hops those all go together great. They are all crowd pleasers. El Dorado and Idaho 7 are also great in my opinion but I think you'll find more mixed opinions on them. You could use either with these other hops but at some point there will be too much noise in the beer for you to notice.

I would definitely use some Citra since it's for a party and almost everyone is going to like that. It's great to support other hops as well. Use one or both of the others in whatever amount suits you really. I just did a cold IPA with 50/50 Citra and Simcoe and it's great. I've done various combinations of all three and is really is hard to go wrong. Here's a thought for the hop bill using what you have.

1oz each Citra/Simcoe at 5 mins
2oz each Citra/Simcoe for 15 min hopstand
4oz each of Citra/Simcoe/Mosaic dry hop as krausen falls

Simcoe is a solid bittering hop too so you can drop some in at 60 mins to get the bitterness you want. It's such a great aroma hop that I'd save it if you have something else for bittering. If you don't want an ounce of Citra left over then just use it in the dry hop and drop an ounce of one of the others. Or just keep both if you want because I'm not your boss

Wow, 18oz… in a 5 gallon batch? If so, I’ve never added that much but may give it a go. I just purchased some incognito and spectrum from Yakima Valley Hops so looks like I have some math to do to translate these concentrates to the pellet equivalent.

 

[eliastheodosis]

Wow, 18oz… in a 5 gallon batch? If so, I’ve never added that much but may give it a go. I just purchased some incognito and spectrum from Yakima Valley Hops so looks like I have some math to do to translate these concentrates to the pellet equivalent.

He says 6.5 gallon above so I did a rough calc to that volume but, yeah, it's definitely still a lot. You can certainly get away with less and still make a very tasty beer. If I am going for something with really heavily saturated juicy hop flavor then that's where I landed. More than that and it got harsh for me. Less and you don't get quite the same flavor punch. I'm in love with lager and saisons and I'm all for subtle hop flavors. If I'm going to get punched in the mouth then I might as well be punched in the mouth, though

I also commonly use a split of cryo and T90 for the hopstand and dry hop. The cryo hop is corrected in this hop bill based on a 2:1 ratio. So this hop bill would be correct if you are using all T90. For example, if I used .5oz of cryo Citra in the hopstand it it is listed as 1oz in this hop bill. The Simcoe I used in the cold IPA was T90 from Yakima Valley and it smelled ridiculous out of the bag. I have some incognito and spectrum on deck to use in upcoming batches. I'm excited to see how that plays

Just had a glass of a cold IPA with this hop bill last night and it is concentrated hop flavor. You can practically feel the earthy/mango/passion fruit/apricot profile from the Simcoe

 

[Panderson1]

I brewed it last night and pitched voss kveik. Fermentation went nuts this morning and was slowing down at 5pm. I just threw in 6 oz dry hops (gonna also keg hop). Bumped it up to a 11 gallon batch fyi.

QUESTION. So how long should i wait until cold crashing? I heard the longer the dryhops sit on that yeast, the more hop burn? I use a fermzilla so i build a little pressure before crashing.

 

[day_trippr]

Short answer: the modern approach espoused by Scott Janish and others is to soft-crash the yeast out of suspension, then do a short (one to two day) dry hop, immediately followed by crashing and packaging.

Longer answer: some hop strains leave a craptop of "hop burn" polyphenols behind vs other strains (looking at you, Galaxy ) and may need a bit longer conditioning to smooth out. Patience will be rewarded...

Cheers!

 

[Panderson1]

Short answer: the modern approach espoused by Scott Janish and others is to soft-crash the yeast out of suspension, then do a short (one to two day) dry hop, immediately followed by crashing and packaging.

Longer answer: some hop strains leave a craptop of "hop burn" polyphenols behind vs other strains (looking at you, Galaxy ) and may need a bit longer conditioning to smooth out. Patience will be rewarded...

Cheers!

Thanks. After i cold crash down to say 45f, does it really matter if i keg it VS leaving it in the fermenter? I would think the yeast is dormant and all falling out... as well as hop matter clearing even more. So can i leave it 2 weeks crashed at 45F in the fermenter (slightly under pressure)? And keg later?

 

[day_trippr]

Best as I can recall the longest I have ever left dry-hops in the fermentors is 8 days, I have no idea what happens beyond that time frame. On the up side those 8 days were up in the diacetyl rest temps in my pre-Janish brewing which would tend to make good and bad things happen quicker, so perhaps your two weeks around 45°F would be roughly equivalent.

That said...I would try not to go that route, it just seems likely to pull things out of the hops that one doesn't really want. Kinda like over-sparging to grab a few gravity points at the risk of also pulling in tannins and silicates...

Cheers!

 

[wepeeler]

If you only have 8oz of each, a single hopped NEIPA isn't going to work. You can make a juicy NEIPA with all of them, most likely in any ratio you go with. If you had a lb of each I would suggest #1 All Citra, #2 All Simcoe #3 Citra Mosaic 50/50. I've done them all numerous times with great results.

Simcoe and Citra are the best single hopped NEIPAs in my lineup. All Mosaic is great too, but lacks complexity, imo.

Shoot for 40-50 IBU. I'm still playing with this and am going to try even less IBU next batch. No 60 min addition. I find the sweet spot is a 5-10 min addition and a WP anywhere from 165-180F for 20-25 min.

As far as dry hops go - a single charge for 24-48 hours is all you need. Scott Janish went through the trouble of scouring research papers and wrote a book showing that extraction on a homebrew level takes place much faster than initially thought. It's worked for me, and I don't get any grassy/vegetal off flavors in my NEIPAs. Soft crash yeast out at 50F for 24-48 hours, and dry hop for the same amount of time. Package and enjoy.

 

[Panderson1]

For what it's worth. I've had 4oz of keg hops (in mesh containers) for 6+ weeks and never noticed any off flavors. At 34f... Probably done that 30 different times. But these are mostly West Coast/Classic IPAs. And i usually shake the kegs a few times 1st 48 hours for suspension

Still learning. Thanks for all the replies and advice.