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Sataroth

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Hello, honorable brewers :)

I'm new here, and it could be great to have your help.
Have 3 brewing sessions at the moment using hand-made stainless steel equipment.

My issue is 2 brews with pale malt are both bad :(
1st brew has too much yeast (1 pack per 8 litres), and that's why it has strong yeast smell and taste. That was late night and I made a mistake.

2nd brew was from pale malt + special caramel, pretty dark. This was awesome, no issues with it.

3rd brew from pale malt has issue again, and I can't get why... It has bad smell and taste, tastes like it was brewed using non-beer yeast. Pretty close to my first failed brew.

So, I guess that my mistake that I was squeezing my malt bag to get as much sugars as possible. I didn't squeeze malt on 2nd brew and it was great!

Could it be an issue, and why?
 
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Sataroth

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Oh, forgot to mention, both failed beers was too cloudy and has high OG, around 13 and 14% (plato)
 
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There are a lot of missing details about your brew that might help pinpoint issues.
1-what is your recipe?
2- brew day details such as mash temp, length, preboil gravity, etc.
3- yeast used plus fermentation temp, do you have temp control, length of fermentation, did you check SG before going to package
4- bottled or kegged?
 

Oginme

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govner1 has hit the main questions I had, but maybe a full description of your process would also help in determining some areas where you can improve consistency.
 

kh54s10

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Agreed, nothing mentioned so far leads to anything that would cause a bad batch - even using too much yeast. If you even did. I would have to run the amounts through a yeast pitch calculator and don't have the time right now.
 

mongoose33

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There's a ton here we don't know, as those ^ have pointed out. Let me add that we don't know your methods of packaging, i.e., bottling, kegging, whatever. That can have a big influence on the result.

Your use of "hand-made stainless steel equipment" is potentially concerning. What does that mean? Further, how easily cleaned is that equipment? Does it include a fermenter or is it just a boil kettle? What else would you have and how are you using it?

********

This is tangential but also on point, if that makes sense.

I attended an off-flavor workshop a couple years ago where they added different off flavors to a reference beer and we learned what the off-flavors presented as in the beer, and the causes. Learned a lot from that, but the approach struck me as....reverse of what makes, to me, more sense.

That is, people brew beer, it's not right, then try to figure out what they did wrong. We were learning to solve problems after the fact, rather than prevent them from the get-go.

What I realized after about my 3rd brew ever was that I needed to refine the process using published information and processes, so that I didn't have off flavors in the first place. That is, figure out what best practices are, and do them.

I know how that sounds, but think about it. I don't know how prevalent this is, but many new brewers seem to kind of just take a swing at it, hoping it'll work out. Sometimes it does, and then later, it doesn't. Why? Process errors. And if they get lucky, it makes finding the process errors all the harder to find.

You want your beer to turn out? Then control all these things:

1. Mash temp
2. Grain Crush
3. Strike water (including composition, chlorine control--bad water leads to bad beer)
4. Cleanliness and sanitation, squared and cubed.
5. Yeast pitch
6. Fermentation temperature (unless using something like Kveik yeast)
7. Recipe (use established recipes until you know what you're doing)
8. Packaging (cleaned and sanitized, and no source of infection)
9. Packaging (control oxidation).

There are more of these things, and if anyone wants to add them, feel free, but the point I hope is made. If you want good beer, then the process should be as bullet-proof as you can make it.

If you cut corners, you will, eventually, get what you deserve. Try to do it as right as possible from the get-go, and you'll be rewarded for that. If you can't, then keep doing continuous quality improvement to make your process better and better.
 

mongoose33

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One more thing in re-reading OP's post: he mentions "squeezing the malt bag." I suspect most of us when reading that are thinking BIAB, but maybe it's a bag of steeping grains.
 
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Sataroth

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Wow, thank you guys, I didn't thought so many people are ready to help!
I will post all information about my processes in hour or so when I get to my PC, it's hard to type much from a phone :)
 
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Sataroth

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Hey gys, I've managed to find a PC, so here's what I have.

Surely it's a BIAB.
A stainless steel 50-letres pan which I have drilled and mount a valve at bottom and analog thermometer at middle height.
I'm using a natural tissue 4-layers bag to hold my malt during mashing.
My fermenter is a plastic 30-litres bucket made specially for fermentation somewhere in Poland =)
Sanitiser is a 99.6 deluxe spirit bought from a local supplier (100% drinkable, not technical)

Ingredients:
-Weyermann malts: "Pale Ale malt" and "Carared", those are made in Germany I guess
-Amarillo and Citra hops
-Mangrove Jack's U.S. West Coast Yest M-44
-Water from a local natural source (have a forest nearby with a natural springs. Water is quite soft and very clean. Never did any measurements for this water by the way)

Processes:
1. Malt is mashed by my local shop, approximately each grain is mashed into 3 pieces (that's how they actually milling it for their local commercial brewery)
2. I'm heating water to 70 Celsium and dropping my malts to it into a wide malt bag I told about.
3. Temp drops to 65-68 and I'm holding it using my gas stove and stirring it very frequently
4. Mashing in this single-stage for 1 hour
5. Taking a test by mixing my mash with iodine (if mash will have starch in it -> iodine will turn green and it will mean I should keep mash for some more)
6. Mashing done. I'm getting bag with malts out into another pan, washing it with a clean water at 70 Celsium. Holding it and squeezing bag with my hands in gloves (I think this is wrong as some white stuff came out from malts, looks like a mix of flour and water)
7. Adding this water into a mash and it will give me a mash with around 13% Plato (1.055 SG)
8. Boiling it for 1 hour or a bit more until I have desired SG around 1.055-1.059 (have to add fresh boiling water if it boiling out). I'm keeping my pan widely open surely. Adding hops, usually some for 60 minutes, some for 10 minutes and some for 0 minutes. Sorry, can't post actual recipe source, taking those from a site I couldn't write about here (could be banned for AD I guess =) )
9. Taking a cleaned and sanitized glass jar and taking 10% of a wort in it. Once it reaches 50 Celsium approximately, taking it to the fridge at 5 Celsium.
10. Chilling wort by my hand-made counter-flow chiller (garden hose with a pure copper tube inside, you can find those DIY chillers all over the internet). Chilling it directly into fermenter, it takes around 15 minutes to get 25L of 20 Celsium wort into my fermenter. Wort is dropping through a sanitized tissue to filter out any protein particles, hops, whatever and get oxygen for yeasts while it drops with multiple streams.
11. Putting fermenter into a pantry, opening yeast pack and sprinkling them onto wort. Closing with a lid tight and adding spirit into twin-bubble airlock.
12. My pantry is a kinda Narnia in my lesser room (through a closet), so it has very stable temperature of 18 Celsium and it's always dark in it. After 3-4 days (it's pretty fast somehow... Even if yeasts pack says 18 Celsium is a minimum temperature) yeasts are stop at around 3% sugars (1.012 final gravity) and yeasts are packing onto bottom for next 1-2 days (my successful beer became pretty transparent as my 1st failed as well, but 2nd failed isn't transparent at all now).
13. Waiting for a 1-2 more days and bottling into plastic beer bottles sanitized with spirit (those are new, clean and never used before). I'm adding 10% by volume of my primer to each bottle before adding actual beer in it. My primer (wort) is warmed naturally to 10-15 Celsium after fridge to not harm yeasts surely.
14. After 1-3 days my bottles are hard as rock and never explodes. Actually my carbonation is always lower than commercial beer =( Have no idea why. Anyway, my successful beer was very good even without tons of CO2 in it. After 3-4 weeks CO2 was completely dissolved, so bubbles in a glass was like a champagne has, tiny chains of bubbles. I red somewhere that it's a good sign =)
By the way I never put my bottled beer into cellar, because I have a garage with cellar under it, but it's few kilometers away so I'm a bit lazy to drive there to take a bottle or two =) And driving after some beer is actually a crime =P

I really hope this info will help, guys =(
 

Frodo

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Your process seems pretty solid to me. My guess is that during fermentation the temp is getting too high. Fermentation produces a lot of heat, so your 64 Fahrenheit (18C) closet is probably too warm and letting the fermentation get into the low to mid 70s Fahrenheit (like 23+ C).

.. Also if you could rinse the bag of grain with rather than squeeze, that might help keep some husk material out of the boil, but to me that's probably a more minor issue..

And in regards to sanitizer, that could be an issue but I really don't know if what you're using works for sanitizing or not...
 
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Jag75

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I'm with Frodo, your process looks fine to me as well. Looks like all 3 beers you used pale malt and the only one that turned out good was the one with specialty malts . Makes me wonder about your water . You say it's from a spring and really soft so not sure . Have you had the water checked?

Did you use the same yeast every time? Min temp for that is 59f / 15c and max temp is 74f / 23 c and you pitched @18c so I'm thinking that's close to 23. If you dont have temp control I'd pitcher the lowest end. The fermentation temp could have surpassed max temp. When you drink a beer are you pouring the whole beer into your glass? You should put in fridge for 24hrs+ then leave the slurry at the bottom( careful not to rouse up the sediment at the bottom right before you open) Your using a high flocculation yeast so I'm leaning back to water because of the cloudiness. Other then that I'm out of ideas . As long as your equipment is clean and sanitized correctly your process looks good.
The only thing I see that sticks out is grain to bottle in 6 days , if I'm reading that right . I personally think that's too short .
 

mongoose33

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Generally the process looks like it should work. There are a few places I have questions:

.
3. Temp drops to 65-68 and I'm holding it using my gas stove and stirring it very frequently
Is it possible you scorched the mash on the first and third brews, but not the second? Continuously applying direct heat to the mash is a chancy thing; if you don't give great attention to stirring, you might possibly scorch the mash. A gas flame is pretty hot, this could happen fairly fast I'd think.

A better approach, IMO, would be to take the kettle off the stove when you add the crushed malt, cover the kettle with the lid, and then wrap it up in a thick blanket. This should hold the heat and there's no risk of scorching.

6. Mashing done. I'm getting bag with malts out into another pan, washing it with a clean water at 70 Celsium. Holding it and squeezing bag with my hands in gloves (I think this is wrong as some white stuff came out from malts, looks like a mix of flour and water)
When I do BIAB I squeeze the bag using rubber-coated gloves. I never had any issues doing this. The only thing that should come out of the bag is wort; I'm wondering if the bag has too coarse a weave and you're getting a lot of flour and grain bits out when you squeeze.

9. Taking a cleaned and sanitized glass jar and taking 10% of a wort in it. Once it reaches 50 Celsium approximately, taking it to the fridge at 5 Celsium.
Why are you doing this? (I see, below, it looks like you're using it as priming sugar)

10. Chilling wort by my hand-made counter-flow chiller (garden hose with a pure copper tube inside, you can find those DIY chillers all over the internet). Chilling it directly into fermenter, it takes around 15 minutes to get 25L of 20 Celsium wort into my fermenter. Wort is dropping through a sanitized tissue to filter out any protein particles, hops, whatever and get oxygen for yeasts while it drops with multiple streams.
There is a little bit of a language issue here--what do you mean by "tissue?" A rag or a cloth?

FYI, many people do not bother to filter the wort--they just dump everything into the fermenter.

12. My pantry is a kinda Narnia in my lesser room (through a closet), so it has very stable temperature of 18 Celsium and it's always dark in it. After 3-4 days (it's pretty fast somehow... Even if yeasts pack says 18 Celsium is a minimum temperature) yeasts are stop at around 3% sugars (1.012 final gravity) and yeasts are packing onto bottom for next 1-2 days (my successful beer became pretty transparent as my 1st failed as well, but 2nd failed isn't transparent at all now).
The MJ site says the recommended range is 18-23C (59-74F) which doesn't make sense. A temp of 18C is 64.4F, not 59F, and 23C is 73.4F.

However, if your lesser room is 18C, that's probably OK. Yeast is "exothermic" which means it produces heat while it is working, and it can raise the temperature of the fermenting wort 2.8-5.6C, or even more. So you would have ended up at the higher end of the recommended range.

13. Waiting for a 1-2 more days and bottling into plastic beer bottles sanitized with spirit (those are new, clean and never used before). I'm adding 10% by volume of my primer to each bottle before adding actual beer in it. My primer (wort) is warmed naturally to 10-15 Celsium after fridge to not harm yeasts surely.
OK, that's what you're holding back the wort for.

14. After 1-3 days my bottles are hard as rock and never explodes. Actually my carbonation is always lower than commercial beer =( Have no idea why. Anyway, my successful beer was very good even without tons of CO2 in it. After 3-4 weeks CO2 was completely dissolved, so bubbles in a glass was like a champagne has, tiny chains of bubbles. I red somewhere that it's a good sign =)
If after 3 weeks you aren't getting enough carbonation, you need more sugar in your bottles. You should let the bottles sit in the dark at room temperature (roughly 22C) for up to 3 weeks. If you are checking after 3 days, it's not long enough, you need to let the bottles go at least 2 weeks, and 3 weeks is better.

Then chill for at least 24 hours, then test.
 

TurnipGreen

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I agree with everything above, but I tend to think about simpler problems. So two of your beers turned out poor.

The first had too much yeast. I doubt that too much yeast is actually the problem. It looks like your beer is only in the primary fermentor for 8 days? I’d consider extending that to three weeks. I have turned beer around much quicker but as a beginner, I recommend leaving it for a solid three weeks. Two weeks minimum. Stable final gravities are the actual measure your shooting for but with added time you’ll get there regardless.

For the second beer you say it has a non-beer yeast flavor. You might have an infection. Try taking another gravity reading. If it’s super low taste like bread, horse blanket or foams like crazy it’s an infection. Thoroughly sanitize everything the beer touches post boil and brew on.
 

madscientist451

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18C is a good temperature for fermenting, but bring the fermenter out to a warmer spot when its almost done and let it sit a week, the warmer temperatures will allow the yeast to finsh and many clean up some unwanted flavors.
Since you are in Poland and it gets cold there, use cold wintertime temperatures to help make better beer. When the beer is done fermenting, set the fermenter in a cold place and more of the yeast will drop to the bottom. If you are getting a yeast flavor, this step will help.
As someone already indicated, 6 days from brewing to bottling is pretty fast.
A better schedule would be to ferment for 5-6 days, let it sit in a warmer temperature 5-6 days and then go into a cold environment for another week.
The above schedule is just a guideline, let you beer tell you when its ready by observing it and tasting it.
Sure, you can go from grain to glass in 6 days, but you need a kegging setup for that and there's a good chance you'll have problems.
Adding 10% unfermented wort when you are bottling can affect the taste.
Another method would be to heat water to sanitize, add sugar, let it cool then add to the beer.
There are online priming calculators available to help figure out how much sugar to add.
Next time, run some trials, using the wort in some bottles and adding the sugar mixture to your beer in others and see if that helps.
The bottling process can cause plenty of problems like oxidation and the introduction of bacteria. I no longer use a bottling bucket when I bottle (which is seldom) I put a domino dot sugar cube in each bottle and it works great and reduces handing of the beer.
Using distilled spirits as a sanitizer may or may not be effective, depending on your method. Many flavor problems are usually traced back to sanitizing issues.
There are many videos on you tube showing all kinds of different ways to bottle beer, check these out and see what works for you.
Also, read the John Palmer book "how to brew" which is available free on line.
 
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Sataroth

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Hey guys!

I will try to answer all at once =)

Your process seems pretty solid to me. My guess is that during fermentation the temp is getting too high. Fermentation produces a lot of heat, so your 64 Fahrenheit (18C) closet is probably too warm and letting the fermentation get into the low to mid 70s Fahrenheit (like 23+ C).

.. Also if you could rinse the bag of grain with rather than squeeze, that might help keep some husk material out of the boil, but to me that's probably a more minor issue..

And in regards to sanitizer, that could be an issue but I really don't know if what you're using works for sanitizing or not...
Actually, I'm rinsing it with few portions of hot water (65-70C) as I don't have spare stove to heat a lot of water, so using 2 liters electric teapot. Planning to do a test batch around 3 liters today without my beg hugs =)
As for sanitizing with spirit, should be good as spirits should denature anything which has proteins in it =) I've heard that fungus is highly resistant to spirit, but I think I'm safe while I'm cleaning all equipment pretty good before sanitizing. Those fungus has no chance to survive =)

I'm with Frodo, your process looks fine to me as well. Looks like all 3 beers you used pale malt and the only one that turned out good was the one with specialty malts . Makes me wonder about your water . You say it's from a spring and really soft so not sure . Have you had the water checked?

Did you use the same yeast every time? Min temp for that is 59f / 15c and max temp is 74f / 23 c and you pitched @18c so I'm thinking that's close to 23. If you dont have temp control I'd pitcher the lowest end. The fermentation temp could have surpassed max temp. When you drink a beer are you pouring the whole beer into your glass? You should put in fridge for 24hrs+ then leave the slurry at the bottom( careful not to rouse up the sediment at the bottom right before you open) Your using a high flocculation yeast so I'm leaning back to water because of the cloudiness. Other then that I'm out of ideas . As long as your equipment is clean and sanitized correctly your process looks good.
The only thing I see that sticks out is grain to bottle in 6 days , if I'm reading that right . I personally think that's too short .
Yeah, used same yeast every time. First time I had pretty high temp as outside temp was still high. My closet ambient have reached 22C those days. And that first bad beer has "yeast taste", which is pretty obvious as I think.
Never managed to keep beer in a fridge for 24 hours =( I need some patience or a bigger fridge, maybe! And I'm pouring whole liter of beer into 1liter glass at once, so all yeasts stays in a bottle. Actually I've tried to mix those with a beer, and their taste isn't so bad as I thought, I've even liked it =) It becomes so... full! Like you're actually eating beer =) Tried that with my successful batch.

Also think that my fermentation is too fast but can't imagine how to lower temperature =( No possibility to install conditioner there, it's too far away from a outer building wall. Maybe I could try to place my fermenter into basin filled with water... Open water might cool it I think as it will be able to evaporate. Have to give it a try

Is it possible you scorched the mash on the first and third brews, but not the second? Continuously applying direct heat to the mash is a chancy thing; if you don't give great attention to stirring, you might possibly scorch the mash. A gas flame is pretty hot, this could happen fairly fast I'd think.

A better approach, IMO, would be to take the kettle off the stove when you add the crushed malt, cover the kettle with the lid, and then wrap it up in a thick blanket. This should hold the heat and there's no risk of scorching.
Doesn't looks like. I've used continuous heating only on this 3rd batch, but wort was smelling and tasting good. And my pan has thick bottom, around 6mm, and I was steering like a madman, every 5 minutes, because I'm a noob and every aspect is scaring me (you all know this feeling, I bet).
Moving my kettle is a kinda problem as I have a problem back, shouldn't lift so much weight. That's why I've switched to continuous heating, had spine problems after first two batches. And my wife surely isn't a helper in it =)

Why are you doing this? (I see, below, it looks like you're using it as priming sugar)
Yeah, I red that priming with any kinds of sugar leaving off flavors as "cider-like". And I was priming my first with dextrose and carbonation took more than 10 days, which is slow as hell O_O. Using 10% of original wort works pretty great.

There is a little bit of a language issue here--what do you mean by "tissue?" A rag or a cloth?
Actually I meant a medical pure cotton gauze wrapped in 4 layers. Bought the one which has no additions (not sterile), boiled it and it has no taste impact.

If after 3 weeks you aren't getting enough carbonation, you need more sugar in your bottles. You should let the bottles sit in the dark at room temperature (roughly 22C) for up to 3 weeks. If you are checking after 3 days, it's not long enough, you need to let the bottles go at least 2 weeks, and 3 weeks is better.

Then chill for at least 24 hours, then test.
Thanks, will surely try like you said!

The first had too much yeast. I doubt that too much yeast is actually the problem. It looks like your beer is only in the primary fermentor for 8 days? I’d consider extending that to three weeks. I have turned beer around much quicker but as a beginner, I recommend leaving it for a solid three weeks. Two weeks minimum. Stable final gravities are the actual measure your shooting for but with added time you’ll get there regardless.
Do you mean I should leave beer in my fermenter for 2-3 weeks? Even after gravity have stopped to change at around 2%? Is it safe?
By the way, my successful batch stayed a bit longer than failed. I gave it 4 days more to settle (kinda experiment).
Maybe that's my problem??? Lack of patience? Should include extended fermentation period into today's testing batch!

18C is a good temperature for fermenting, but bring the fermenter out to a warmer spot when its almost done and let it sit a week, the warmer temperatures will allow the yeast to finsh and many clean up some unwanted flavors.
Since you are in Poland and it gets cold there, use cold wintertime temperatures to help make better beer. When the beer is done fermenting, set the fermenter in a cold place and more of the yeast will drop to the bottom. If you are getting a yeast flavor, this step will help.
As someone already indicated, 6 days from brewing to bottling is pretty fast.
A better schedule would be to ferment for 5-6 days, let it sit in a warmer temperature 5-6 days and then go into a cold environment for another week.
The above schedule is just a guideline, let you beer tell you when its ready by observing it and tasting it.
Sure, you can go from grain to glass in 6 days, but you need a kegging setup for that and there's a good chance you'll have problems.
Adding 10% unfermented wort when you are bottling can affect the taste.
Another method would be to heat water to sanitize, add sugar, let it cool then add to the beer.
There are online priming calculators available to help figure out how much sugar to add.
Next time, run some trials, using the wort in some bottles and adding the sugar mixture to your beer in others and see if that helps.
The bottling process can cause plenty of problems like oxidation and the introduction of bacteria. I no longer use a bottling bucket when I bottle (which is seldom) I put a domino dot sugar cube in each bottle and it works great and reduces handing of the beer.
Using distilled spirits as a sanitizer may or may not be effective, depending on your method. Many flavor problems are usually traced back to sanitizing issues.
There are many videos on you tube showing all kinds of different ways to bottle beer, check these out and see what works for you.
Also, read the John Palmer book "how to brew" which is available free on line.
I'm from Kiev, Ukraine actually =)
From your post and all above I think that I'm bottling too early =/
Again, is it safe to keep beer in fermenter after gravity has settled for 2 weeks more? I will include extended fermentation period to my test now cause I think that's my main trouble.
If not, will experiment with another sanitizer.

By the way, another issue I'm facing is I'm adding even a bit less hops than in recipe and still my beer is too bitter. That bitterness isn't from any issues, exact hops bitterness, but too much of it... Maybe I should buy one of those hop bags and take them out once boiling is done? As I have another 20 minutes after boiling to whirlpool and chill my wort. Probably too much A-acids dissolves.
 

TurnipGreen

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Do you mean I should leave beer in my fermenter for 2-3 weeks? Even after gravity have stopped to change at around 2%? Is it safe?
By the way, my successful batch stayed a bit longer than failed. I gave it 4 days more to settle (kinda experiment).
Maybe that's my problem??? Lack of patience? Should include extended fermentation period into today's testing batch!
Yeah. Just leave it be for a while. Nothing will bad will happen in an extra week or two. But ever time you open the fermenter you risk infection and oxidation. Keep it as simple as possible while you learn the process.

If you’re new to brewing, I recommend you just leave it for three weeks, then package. Don’t measure the gravity unless you are packaging. just relax have a beer and trust the magic of beer will provide. 90% of my beers sit in the fermenter for three weeks. Some are done in as little as three days some take the full three weeks to clean up.

I’m not really sure what the 2% is you’re referencing. Gravity is a measure of density. We tend to refer to a original gravity (before the yeast is working) and a final gravity (after the yeast has done everything it can). Many people take gravity readings in between those, but you don’t really need to. I rarely do, because the risk of infection.
 
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Sataroth

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Hey!
I will definitely try to keep it for 3 weeks now =) There was info all over the internet which tells "when gravity readings doesn't change anymore -> bottle it!", and that's what I was following =(
Thank you guys for this clarification!

I have brewed a mini-batch of 2.5 liters and it's still fermenting for 4th day now, having high brownish foam. Will see what will happen in 2+ more weeks.

I’m not really sure what the 2% is you’re referencing.
Those 2% are Brix units, this means your solution contains 2% of sugar. This corresponds to your units named Specific Gravity as 1.008.
So my OG was 1.056 and FG 1.008 when I bottled.
Those SG, Brix and Plato are all the same, but just a different scales =) As Brix is measuring "how many parts per 100 units", and SG is measuring "How is it denser than clean water".

Now I'm thinking about what should I do with my too early bottled beer?
1. Should I just wait and keep it at fermentation temperature (even if nothing noticeable happens in bottles)
2. Sterilize fermenter and pour it back there? (bad idea because of oxygen and beer won't produce much CO2 to protect itself)
3. Put those bottles into cellar and forget for 1-2 month, then taste it? (at the moment bottles spent 10 days on carbonization)
4. Wait 2 weeks more and then put bottles into cellar?
5. Maybe I should taste one now? =) (still hope for a miracle, and maybe I will have opinion how fast it becomes better)
 

TurnipGreen

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I vote for trying one now. Take some notes of flavor and carbonation. A week later open an other bottle. Take some more notes with that bottle. Keep going until it’s to your liking.

Don’t do anything more. Once it’s in the bottle you’re done and committed.
 
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Sataroth

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Hello!

Tried it yesterday, and it still tastes awful, but a little bit better than it was =( Probably should leave it be for few month.
 
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