Help on proper use of Campden, gypsum and other additives

[jcorn]

I have been making beer that I am very happy with for the past couple of years. I am looking to improve in any department that I can. I mostly brew hoppy pale ales and wheets. Recently I was told by a professional head brewer that my beer seemed to taste like the water maybe was not of best quality. I am now looking at trying to improve this. I would extract alot of tannins during my mashing of dark beers so I decided to switch to cold steeping which helped alot. Things I have just started doing now include adding campden tablets (potassium metabisulfate) and I currently add 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of Buffer 5.2 to my mash water to prevent ph problems and further tannin problems in higher acidic batches. I mostly do biab and partial mash brews.

Is it ok to add all of these together? I am looking to also add the use of whirfloc tabs or gypsum to improve hop sharpness and total quality, although I do not care about clarity one bit. What is my best option here and is it ok to combine all of these ingredients together? I do not want to end up with an extremely salty beer or anything. Although I really have not ran a water test, I do know where my water comes from (city water) and it actually tastes pretty good. I am located in southern Indiana. Should I start filtering with carbon prior to the campden tablet additions?

 

[kaconga]

I have heard that the 5.2 buffer stuff is essentially crap. Frankly I think you might just be better off getting a water report since anything and everything people will tell you will just be pure speculation. The one caveat is that you can get RO water and build up the ions yourself. Check out the water chemistry primer by ajdelange if you are interested in that route. It has helped me make much better all grain beers than I was before.

 

[jcorn]

I have heard that the 5.2 buffer stuff is essentially crap. Frankly I think you might just be better off getting a water report since anything and everything people will tell you will just be pure speculation. The one caveat is that you can get RO water and build up the ions yourself. Check out the water chemistry primer by ajdelange if you are interested in that route. It has helped me make much better all grain beers than I was before.

The only thing that worries me about a water report is that my city tells me they often split water from 2-3 different sources around here. I would hate to adjust to one way and them change the source on me throwing everything off again.

I have heard alot of bad stuff on buffer 5.2 being crap as well but it always helps my efficiency at least 2 or 3 points so I started using it again. I had astringency problems in dark beers before. At the time I had been mashing out on biab by turning the heat upto 170 degrees(bag was not directly on the bottom of pot during heating) and holding it for 10 mins/ sqeezing the bag afterwards. That is when I really started to notice astringent flavors in my beers so I quit that altogether and only cold steeped them. Not entirely sure if the squeezing, mash out temps or ph was to blame for astringency. Since switching to cold steeping only on dark malts I have not had any problems.

 

[ColeVet67]

Only a suggestion.. I only brew with bottled spring water (from super market). The water reports are available online and i would assume that they would remain (fairly) stable enough to brew with. I only do it, to eliminate township water supply. + only adds a few extra $$$ bucks to your ingredients shopping list.

$.02

 

[jcorn]

Only a suggestion.. I only brew with bottled spring water (from super market). The water reports are available online and i would assume that they would remain (fairly) stable enough to brew with. I only do it, to eliminate township water supply. + only adds a few extra $$$ bucks to your ingredients shopping list.

$.02

I cheapest I have seen bottled water is at .80 cents a gallon. Have you seen larger bulk anywhere? Maybe even the 5 gallon jugs or whatever?

 

[phenry]

If you're looking into adjusting your water chemistry I highly suggest using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. If you're worried about variable water quality due to the number of sources your municipality uses, you could look at past years' water reports and see if they report similar values. If the past 5 annual reports were all similar, I'd say you're good to assume your water is fairly constant. If not, RO or spring water would be the route I'd take. Once that's established you can adjust the minerals in your water to suit each recipe you come up with, which includes tailoring your mash pH so you won't have to use 5.2 anymore.

 

[jcorn]

If you're looking into adjusting your water chemistry I highly suggest using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet. If you're worried about variable water quality due to the number of sources your municipality uses, you could look at past years' water reports and see if they report similar values. If the past 5 annual reports were all similar, I'd say you're good to assume your water is fairly constant. If not, RO or spring water would be the route I'd take. Once that's established you can adjust the minerals in your water to suit each recipe you come up with, which includes tailoring your mash pH so you won't have to use 5.2 anymore.

That sounds like alot of work haha. I cannot obtain previous water reports because my source does not keep onto that info on file. Does it really have to be this crazy to get your water to taste good and have proper mashing? Can I not sprinkle some magical dust in and call it a day? Lol.. It all just seems so painful to go through for water quality.

 

[jcorn]

That sounds like alot of work haha. I cannot obtain previous water reports because my source does not keep onto that info on file. Does it really have to be this crazy to get your water to taste good and have proper mashing? Can I not sprinkle some magical dust in and call it a day? Lol.. It all just seems so painful to go through for water quality.

 

[poptarts]

To do water right its like a 50 dollar investment and its pretty worth it. I agree with others, check to see where your water comes from. If it is a river just skip the test and go straight for RO if it a lake or well or something that has potential to be stable then pay for a test. RO water is 39 cents a gallon at my walmart making it 4$ a batch to know exactly what im brewing with, makes it pretty worth it imo.

 

[RonPopeil]

I use distilled for any lagers or soft water beers. Add 2tsp gypsum and 2tsp CaCl. If it's an english style or anything else minerally I use filtered tap water. Of those, if it's hoppy I add another 2tsp of gypsum.

 

[Homercidal]

It's true that there is a small amount of work involved in getting your water set up the way you want.

In the very least, you need to get a water report suitable for use in adjusting your water. You *might* get something suitable from your municipality, but for sure you can get one through Ward Labs for $30 or so. They have two tests, a complete household mineral test, and a brewers test. Both should be ok for homebrewing purposes.

Even if the source water changes, you could start tracking it now and get an idea of how much it changes. It may not be enough to cause you to change your calculations.

The other alternative is to buy RO water. I have a source at my local grocery store that costs .39 a gallon and I buy 10 gallons for a 5 gallon batch. Doing this will alow you to add JUST what you want in your water using a spreadsheet (I like and use Bru'nwater).

Once you get the hang of using the spreadsheet it's pretty simple to adjust the water for pH and flavor.

You really ought to have a pH meter to double-check your mash pH, but if you get good efficiency and like the flavor of your beer after adjusting, then you may not want to spend the $80 for a low-end pH meter. Some people get by with pH strips, but in my experience they are crap and at best you will have to figure an offset for them because they are notorious for being off a bit.

5.2 stuff can be useful for some people, but in general it's a bad solution. It can't possibly work as advertised for everyone.

Trust me, once you start using RO water and a spreadsheet to calculate how much of each salt to add into the mash and sparge, you will find it really easy. A gram scale is nice, but you can approximate with 1/4tsp measurements if you don't want to spend the couple of bucks for a scale.

 

[jcorn]

It's true that there is a small amount of work involved in getting your water set up the way you want.

In the very least, you need to get a water report suitable for use in adjusting your water. You *might* get something suitable from your municipality, but for sure you can get one through Ward Labs for $30 or so. They have two tests, a complete household mineral test, and a brewers test. Both should be ok for homebrewing purposes.

I finally made the next step and ordered a brewers kit from Wards..

Even if the source water changes, you could start tracking it now and get an idea of how much it changes. It may not be enough to cause you to change your calculations.

The two seperate sources for my water come from a local lake and they told they sometimes can pull from "an underground lake aka a well?" so hopefully I do not get much change.


The other alternative is to buy RO water. I have a source at my local grocery store that costs .39 a gallon and I buy 10 gallons for a 5 gallon batch. Doing this will alow you to add JUST what you want in your water using a spreadsheet (I like and use Bru'nwater).

Once you get the hang of using the spreadsheet it's pretty simple to adjust the water for pH and flavor.

You really ought to have a pH meter to double-check your mash pH, but if you get good efficiency and like the flavor of your beer after adjusting, then you may not want to spend the $80 for a low-end pH meter. Some people get by with pH strips, but in my experience they are crap and at best you will have to figure an offset for them because they are notorious for being off a bit.

I bought a cheap ph meter from a deal I saw on homebrewfinds.com once but have never even used it because I was afraid of damaging the tip on it because I do not have any makeup for it yet. I need to get on that..

5.2 stuff can be useful for some people, but in general it's a bad solution. It can't possibly work as advertised for everyone.

Trust me, once you start using RO water and a spreadsheet to calculate how much of each salt to add into the mash and sparge, you will find it really easy. A gram scale is nice, but you can approximate with 1/4tsp measurements if you don't want to spend the couple of bucks for a scale.

All of this this in depth water profile stuff is still important towards extract brewing too, right? I have started going back to my old lazy ways of extract beers as of late lol
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up for me and inspiring me to finally get this water checked out!

 

[RonPopeil]

Some of it is for flavor, some for proper mash ph and some for both. I'd imagine adding some gypsum to hoppy extract brews can't hurt.

 

[HumulusHead]

All of this this in depth water profile stuff is still important towards extract brewing too, right? I have started going back to my old lazy ways of extract beers as of late lol

Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up for me and inspiring me to finally get this water checked out!

Even if they are changing their water source between those different sources I wouldn't be too worried. The well water will always be the same and the lake water should always be fairly the same. It'll just be the mix of the three that will change but shouldn't change all that much.

I ran into very similar problem except one source (the main source) is a river which is constantly changing with rainfall, heat, upstream/downstream conditions, and the seasons. Adding that to being mixed with a different river and some well water at different rates I just gave up and now start out with distilled water.


Sent from myPhone

 

[jcorn]

Even if they are changing their water source between those different sources I wouldn't be too worried. The well water will always be the same and the lake water should always be fairly the same. It'll just be the mix of the three that will change but shouldn't change all that much.

I ran into very similar problem except one source (the main source) is a river which is constantly changing with rainfall, heat, upstream/downstream conditions, and the seasons. Adding that to being mixed with a different river and some well water at different rates I just gave up and now start out with distilled water.


Sent from myPhone

Water chemistry just seems so stressful! I don't know that I am smart enough to tackle all of it. I guess time will tell haha

 

[HumulusHead]

Oh I hear ya there. That's why I take the easy way out.

Just build from distilled!

Ha

One helluva poet


Sent from myPhone

 

[jcorn]

Oh I hear ya there. That's why I take the easy way out.

Just build from distilled!

Ha

One helluva poet


Sent from myPhone

I dont imagine walking out of walmart with brewing water all of the time to by an easy thing. Lol. That has to get annoying

 

[jcorn]

I dont imagine walking out of walmart with brewing water all of the time to by an easy thing. Lol. That has to get annoying

 

[kaconga]

I spend a buck a gallon at my local grocery store and it is no more a pain than getting my grains milled at the lhbs or making a starter. I brew approximately once a month and the 10 gallons or so is just another part of brew day for me now. My beers have been better for it and it cuts out a lot of second guessing.

 

[RonPopeil]

I dont imagine walking out of walmart with brewing water all of the time to by an easy thing. Lol. That has to get annoying

It's not that bad. You can get a case of 6 for $5. Comes in cardboard. Get two the first time and then you can add to it as you go.

 

[Homercidal]

Water chemistry just seems so stressful! I don't know that I am smart enough to tackle all of it. I guess time will tell haha

It's not. I can step you through it as I understand it.

 

[Homercidal]

All of this this in depth water profile stuff is still important towards extract brewing too, right? I have started going back to my old lazy ways of extract beers as of late lol
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this up for me and inspiring me to finally get this water checked out!

It's not necessary for extract brewing, according to some. Here's why:

All grain brewing relies on the grain enzymes converting the starches in the grain to sugars. They work best at a certain pH. With extract, that's already been done for you. This is the main reason people do water adjustments.

Of course there is the flavor aspect and adjusting your water for pH can help your beer flavor greatly, but as far as adjusting for pH, it's not necessary. You can use water that tastes good for extract without needing to fiddle with adjustments.

Then again, if your water is not great tasting for the beer style you are making, then adjusting your water mineral content is not a bad thing to try either.

Some people claim that using RO water for extract beers is a good idea, because the extract will contain the SAME mineral content that was in the water when the company made the extract. It doesn't disappear with the water that gets taken out, it stays behind.

So, adding minerals to the beer by using spring water only adds MORE minerals, and you still don't know what the company had for minerals in their extract to start with! It's like doubling up on the minerals!

 

[jcorn]

It's not necessary for extract brewing, according to some. Here's why:

All grain brewing relies on the grain enzymes converting the starches in the grain to sugars. They work best at a certain pH. With extract, that's already been done for you. This is the main reason people do water adjustments.

Of course there is the flavor aspect and adjusting your water for pH can help your beer flavor greatly, but as far as adjusting for pH, it's not necessary. You can use water that tastes good for extract without needing to fiddle with adjustments.

Then again, if your water is not great tasting for the beer style you are making, then adjusting your water mineral content is not a bad thing to try either.

Some people claim that using RO water for extract beers is a good idea, because the extract will contain the SAME mineral content that was in the water when the company made the extract. It doesn't disappear with the water that gets taken out, it stays behind.

So, adding minerals to the beer by using spring water only adds MORE minerals, and you still don't know what the company had for minerals in their extract to start with! It's like doubling up on the minerals!

Well I went back to extract mainly for the ease of brewing. I actually do more partial mash than anything so I am sure this will help me greatly for my ph adjustments although I brewer modtly everything under 10 srm. I could not make any dark beer because everything would turn out so astringent because of my ph levels so hopefully I can make the proper adjustments soon and be back to my biab all grain and partial mashing on dark beers.

As of recent on my dark extract and partial mash beers I have just been cold steeping and have found it to help greatly with the astringency problem (but losing efficiency of course). I am sure I am still lacking the proper adjustments needed for ph and minerals though.

My house was built in 1948. It has the old galvanized steel piping mostly all the way through. On a recent bathroom remodel I replaced 60% of the piping with new cpvc and pvc piping but my main incoming water lines are still the galvanized. Everytime I use brew water I run it through my pvc piping to try and bypass as much of the steel as possible although my water always runs pretty clear and tastes good. Should I replace the rest of that 40% steel piping asap for my water quality?

 

[jcorn]

Well I went back to extract mainly for the ease of brewing. I actually do more partial mash than anything so I am sure this will help me greatly for my ph adjustments although I brewer modtly everything under 10 srm. I could not make any dark beer because everything would turn out so astringent because of my ph levels so hopefully I can make the proper adjustments soon and be back to my biab all grain and partial mashing on dark beers.

As of recent on my dark extract and partial mash beers I have just been cold steeping and have found it to help greatly with the astringency problem (but losing efficiency of course). I am sure I am still lacking the proper adjustments needed for ph and minerals though.

My house was built in 1948. It has the old galvanized steel piping mostly all the way through. On a recent bathroom remodel I replaced 60% of the piping with new cpvc and pvc piping but my main incoming water lines are still the galvanized. Everytime I use brew water I run it through my pvc piping to try and bypass as much of the steel as possible although my water always runs pretty clear and tastes good. Should I replace the rest of that 40% steel piping asap for my water quality?

 

[Homercidal]

Ok, nutshell time. Here is how I approach water adjustment.

First get a spreadsheet and open it. (I prefer Bru'nwater). Enter your water mineral ppm's into the spreadsheet (Or choose RO water with ZERO minerals already)
Choose a style or SRM of beer. This tells the spreadsheet what pH requirements are, and the flavor ions to go with it (Light, hoppy beer, vs dark malty beer, and all combinations between)
Enter your grain bill. This tells the spreadsheet how much of each mineral or acid will be added to the mash by the grain.
Enter the amount of water for each the mash and sparge. This tells the spreadsheet how diluted the mineral content vs the grain bill.

Then you estimate how much minerals to add to the mash to get the right pH, and the right amount of flavor ions. It's a balancing act. You can only modify the pH up and down by adding a flavor ion of some sort. For instance,

Gypsum is Calcium Sulfate. It will add Calcium, but also adds some Sulfate. It lowers pH.
Chalk is Calcium Carbonate. It will add Calcium, and raises pH. But it's not very soluable in water, so it's rarely used.
Calcium Chloride. It will add Calcium, but also Chloride. It lowers pH.

In these examples, you can see that people will use either CaCl, or CaSO4 for adding Calcium, and they will choose between the two depending on whether they want to increase the Sulfate or Chloride flavor minerals to get the best flavor for their particular beer style.

Also, Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salts) adds Magnesium, for good yeast health, and Sulfates, to increase the sulfate in the sulfate/chloride ratio for flavor. Lowers pH.


Most people starting with RO water will add a bit of Gypsum for Calcium and Sulfate, and some Calcium Chloride for Calcium and Chloride. The amount of each will be determined by the flavor profile they are looking for. The spreadsheet will display the expected pH and the flavor ratio. I recommend looking at the total amount of flavor ppms rather than a ratio. Having a good ratio, but having too much is not good either.

Basically I shoot for 55-100 ppm of calcium and the recommend amount of ppm for the sulfate and chloride and call it good. Maybe a bit of magnesium sulfate for yeast health, but I have read it's not really that necessary since the grain contains some magnesium within itself.

Adding minerals to the sparge water will allow you to add flavor ions to the finished beer without ruining the pH of the mash. The spreadsheet should tell you how much of each to add. It will also tell you how much acid to add in the event you have too much alkalinity and mineral additions won't drop the pH enough without affecting the flavor too much. Phosphoric acid is a good acid to use since it lowers pH without adding any flavor (At the recommended amounts).

 

[jcorn]

Oh boy haha. Well my water test kit should be here in the next couple of days hopefully. I should have my report turned in and results back by next week. I will just plug in to bru n water like you said and see what it gives me for additions. I am about to put in another beer order at Morebeer. So what all do I need to buy to be ahead of the game for adjustments? Gypsum (or calcium sulfate), calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate (or epsom salt)? Also I need makeup for ph meter. Just any standard makeup is fine?

 

[Homercidal]

Bru'nwater won't actually TELL you what the proper additions would be, you get to plug in your guesstimates and see how it affects the numbers.

Bru'nwater is also a *bit* complicated looking and there is a small learning curve, but it is not hard to use once you understand the layout and how the numbers you enter affect the different worksheets.

I recommend gypsum, Calcium Chloride, and epsom salt. You will probably only use the first two, but you might want to add a bit of magnesium. Plus some form of acid. As I mentioned, I like Phospohoric acid, but you could use acid malt, lactic acid, hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid... The last two are more dangerous to handle and add chloride and sulfate, so they are less attractive to me.

You will find it's not that hard to calculate the additions. Focus on getting the pH you need for the mash, most of all, and getting the flavor items and yeast health items in their proper ranges while you do it. Like I say, for most people it's simply a matter of taking RO water and adding a bit of gypsum or CaCl to get the calcium you need for yeast and clarity, and the proper balance of flavor ions.

It *may* help you to understand what pH actually is, chemically. Check out something on Google. There are a few really good and fairly easy to understand brewing-related articles on water chemistry out these days. I think Braukaiser has a good one: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control

 

[jcorn]

I will definitely take another look at an article on ph control. The first time I read the byo one none of the information would stick.

Do you think the old galvanized pipes in my home are of concern? How much mineral or rust could they add to my water? I need to get down there and finish replacing all of the rest of the piping with pvc and cpvc.

 

[jcorn]

Finally got my report back today and below is my results if you find any spare time to read through it. I would very much appeciate your time and help. I am not smart enough to figure this stuff out! I plugged all of my numbers into bru n water and it is giving me a yellow highlighted final result for my inputs. It shows 0.9 in yellow and I am completely lost

pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 146
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.24
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.1 / 2.2
ppm
Sodium, Na 19
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 16
Magnesium, Mg 5
Total Hardness, CaCO3 61
Nitrate, NO3-N < 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 26
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 78
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 64
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

 

[kaconga]

K. I plugged your water into brewers friend water chemistry calculator and for 7 gallons of water you should add one teaspoon gypsum and one teaspoon calcium chloride for a balanced beer. So your water isn't bad for brewing. It just needs a little boost in the flavor ion department.

 

[jcorn]

Kaconga, thank you very much for taking the time to do that for me! I appreciate your help. So with those additions it seems like my brewing water probably lacks calcium? You did mean to add these post mash/pre boil though, right?

 

[kaconga]

I treat my water all at once prior to mashing and sparging. The calcium helps buffer the mash during sparging so your ph won't climb as quickly. The chloride will round off the hop flavors while the sulfate will sharpen them.

I recommend a program like brewers friend as it is free and is more intuitive for me. Also I think your water would be almost ideal for ajdelange's water chemistry primer on the forums here. I have been using it to great success with my beers. He utilizes acid malt to get good mash ph with minimal mineral introduction.

 

[jcorn]

So you adjust the salts in your mash occordingly prior to actually being mashed? You determine what salts need to be added based on the percepted srm from your grist bill pretty much by plugging into one of the apps? Or is what you recommended for additions something I would do everytime/ not just to adjust for my grist bills?

 

[Homercidal]

The mash pH is balanced between the water and grains. Roasted grains contain more acid, so they affect the pH by driving it down. That is why water with higher alkalinity works better with darker beers.

You can't add the same amount of minerals for a stout as you do for a lager. (Well, you *could*, but it wouldn't necessarily be the best beer you could have made)

 

[jcorn]

So I would be right to assume that because my water is high in alkaline total 62 i think it was (according to palmer any water ph over 7.2 is alkaline) that producing lighter beers will be a bigger challenge for me if I dont adjust? My last mash was 8 lbs of 2 row and 2 lbs of flaked corn and I hit 5.8 with my ph meter. Didnt do adjustments.

I do biab mostly and typically end up using at least 2qts per pound. Can you use more mash water to raise ph?

 

[ColeVet67]

I cheapest I have seen bottled water is at .80 cents a gallon. Have you seen larger bulk anywhere? Maybe even the 5 gallon jugs or whatever?

Wally World (Wal-Mart) sells big 5 gal jugs used for water machines. Dont recall the price. I do know that there is like a deposit fee. something you could equate to propane tank replacement.

Example. 5 gal water jug cost $12 + $15 desposit fee. If you bring back the jug you dont pay the $15 deposit fee.. so you only spend $12. Or something like that

The onther option is to call up Poland Springs or some other water comp and have them deliver. They will deliver to your house. May be an option... ???

 

[Homercidal]

So I would be right to assume that because my water is high in alkaline total 62 i think it was (according to palmer any water ph over 7.2 is alkaline) that producing lighter beers will be a bigger challenge for me if I dont adjust? My last mash was 8 lbs of 2 row and 2 lbs of flaked corn and I hit 5.8 with my ph meter. Didnt do adjustments.

I do biab mostly and typically end up using at least 2qts per pound. Can you use more mash water to raise ph?

You water is not high in alkalinity. Don't confuse pH with alkalinity. (Although they are related)

Palmer was basically saying that 7.0 is neutral. 7.2 is alkaline, but he doesn't mean it's too alkaline for brewing.

As a comparison, my alkalinity is 186. That's pretty alkaline for brewing. I usually have to add some acid and minerals for stouts.

I think you are doing pretty good for water chemistry, you just have to watch listen and read more water adjustment articles. It will stick.