Help me with my first saison recipe

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
5 lbs 8.0 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 45.8 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 20.8 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 16.7 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 8.3 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 5 8.3 %
1.00 oz East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 16.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [3.75 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 7 4.5 IBUs
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 8 -

5 gallon batch
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
The biggest question I have is the Vienna. Am I using too much?
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
I would cut the Vienna in half, and cut out the crystal malt entirely. If you really want the crystal 40L flavor in there, then cut the carapils and reduce the C40 to 4-6 ounces, 8 oz max. I would sooner cut the C40 and leave 4-6 oz of Carapils, but with all that wheat it's not needed. In either case, make up the gravity difference with more Pils malt.
 

SuchSweetThunder

Active Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
Messages
32
Reaction score
1
Location
St. Louis
I concur on the Vienna--I sometimes go that route for a fall-ish saison, but I'm quicker to add other grains (rye especially) for some malt interest than Vienna.

My favorite saisons have been pretty much pilsner-wheat-(rye) and lots of spicy Saaz, and that's about it.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
first thing I would do is take out all the crystal. IME crystal had no business being in a saison. It detracts from its super crisp body and mucks up the zippy yeast character. Also, I'd use more wheat or flaked rye/wheat/oats instead of the carapils, but if you arent interested in being traditional or true to style you could keep it in. I'd also add some simple sugar to dry it out more and be sure to ferment hot.

Like above, some of the very best saisons Ive done were just like 70%pils/20%wheat or adjunct/10%sugar. I've actually got one going right now thats like 50%pils and 50% flaked wheat & flaked rye. Pretty interested to see how that one turns out. Last one I used a bunch of flaked wheat in was phenomenal, though it mightve been the new yeast blend I was tweaking. Ill add vienna and all different kinds of adjuncts to switch things up. Only specialty malt I enjoy in saisons (aside from a debittered black one for dark saisons) is aromatic.
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
Awesome. I appreciate this so much
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
I tend to like 70% Pils, 10% Munich, 10% Aromatic, and 10% sugar. I'd have no problem subbing out Munich for Vienna, or subbing out the Aromatic for wheat/rye/spelt/whatever. But yes, I think crystal malt is out of place in a Saison, hence my suggestion to cut it entirely. However, if what you want is closer to a Saison Silly, I could see it being in there (although I personally think Saison Silly is a terrible example despite being listed in 2008 BJCP as a commercial example of the style)
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
Any suggestion on how to make up for the color if i omit the c40?

I'm totally up to take it out as I want to do the style justice as its my favorite (just never brewed) but beersmith knocks the color down 2 points without it.
 

danthebugman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
169
Reaction score
22
Location
Joplin
I would cut the Vienna...and also the Cara-Pils and Crystal (they don't have any business in a Saison). Just use a good quality Pilsner malt, Belgian or French if you can get it, and you'll have the start to a great Saison.
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
Boil it 90 minutes. You'll make up the color.

For the record, my frame of reference for Saison is Saison Dupont, which IIRC from the data provided by the brewer in "Farmhouse Ales" is just Pils malt and sugar. That's not the only interpretation of Saison. I have no problem with pale. If you're looking for competition-worthy, missing 1 point for being almost imperceptibly lighter will be much different than losing 8 points between flavor and aroma for having an inappropriate caramel-toffee character.
 

danthebugman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
169
Reaction score
22
Location
Joplin
Any suggestion on how to make up for the color if i omit the c40?

I'm totally up to take it out as I want to do the style justice as its my favorite (just never brewed) but beersmith knocks the color down 2 points without it.
If you're really wanting to have those two extra color points then you could add a touch of some Carafa III or something like that to give it a bit of color. Personally I'd just do without the extra two points.
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
If you're really wanting to have those two extra color points then you could add a touch of some Carafa III or something like that to give it a bit of color. Personally I'd just do without the extra two points.
As much as people claim you can adjust color with dehusked Carafa Special without flavor, even an ounce or two and I can still taste it. I'd sooner have the caramel than the roast.

Seriously, just don't worry about the color. Saisons can be very pale. Every Saison I do is all lighter malts. If you want some color, toss some Aromatic in there, as it'll provide some malt depth, but it's also a little darker and will add some color without providing the caramel/sweetness of crystal malt.
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
Sounds good, I'll do without the color.

I've taken out the c40 and carapils. Kicked up my pilsner to make up for the gravity and added another half pound of wheat.

Is there anywhere on beersmith to add sugar? I'm not seeing it and if I add it myself it wont change the vitals.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
Yeah, all my saisons are very very pale except for the autumn one I added munich to and the black saisons I've made. I wouldnt worry about it. To me, that's kind of the spirit of the style. Go with whatever you got

edit: oh and 3711 will ferment very well at room temps but Id recommend insulating the fermentor with a heavy winter jacket or something to try and get it to the 80s or so. Youll get more fruity flavors from it. I've got a saison thats wearing my fancy new winter jacket I bought over the winter right now. Ive only worn the damn thing once, but ive used it for at least 20 beers...
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
The 3711 while it will ferment a old shoe is pretty boring.

What strain would you recommend?



Also, regarding the sugar to dry things out, would you guys recommended table sugar or honey and what will each do for the beer?

Adding a pound of either will knock my abv to 7.5 to 7.9. What size starter would you guys recommend?
 

55x11

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
1,115
Reaction score
307
Location
san diego
If you're really wanting to have those two extra color points then you could add a touch of some Carafa III or something like that to give it a bit of color. Personally I'd just do without the extra two points.
I would use/sub some dark sugar for color. Also can make it a bit dryer.
 

Jonkl

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
182
Reaction score
20
Location
Out in the boonies
I personally love 3711. Gives a little chewy chalkiness, which keeps body despite big attenuation, and I always get a tangy zip in the finish, which is refreshing. It might be more muted in the spicy phenols when compared to Dupont, but it's definitely a yeast with some character, too. Just don't be afraid to ferment it as warm as you can get it.

Also, don't worry about the color. It'll be close enough. And it'll be darn tasty, too.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
Out of all the saison yeasts and blends Ive tried, I like a 50/50 mix of WY3711 and WLP566 the best personally. But you really cant go wrong. Im a huge fan of blending the yeasts together though for saisons
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
How much sugar would you guys recommend?
 

55x11

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
1,115
Reaction score
307
Location
san diego
Out of all the saison yeasts and blends Ive tried, I like a 50/50 mix of WY3711 and WLP566 the best personally. But you really cant go wrong. Im a huge fan of blending the yeasts together though for saisons
this is interesting. I often worry about yeast strains competing (and one outcompeting the other), but is there any specific logic behind using those two? E.g. one for saison-specific funky /spicy flavor, one for dryness?

I used WLP590 for my Rye Saison a few months ago, a new offering from While Labs (French Saison Yeast) and it was incredibly clean tasting and finished very dry with no stalling issues. Highly recommended.
 

danthebugman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
169
Reaction score
22
Location
Joplin
As much as people claim you can adjust color with dehusked Carafa Special without flavor, even an ounce or two and I can still taste it. I'd sooner have the caramel than the roast.
I only gave the Carafa III as an example as it's used pretty commonly for color adjustment. I never claimed it wouldn't effect flavor though. I don't notice much if any flavor from a small amount of cold steeped Carafa III, but to each their own. The Aromatic is probably a better option though :rockin:.

Also, regarding the sugar to dry things out, would you guys recommended table sugar or honey and what will each do for the beer?
Each will bring something different to the beer. I usually just use some table sugar if I'm just wanting to dry it out some. If I'm looking to bring something a little more to the beer I will look at using different kinds of sugar or honey. Honey looses something if boiled so I add it while chilling the beer or bottling with it is interesting too.
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
If I were going to blend strains, I would go with WLP565/Wyeast 3724 first, give it a 5-7 day head start, and then make a very small starter (0.5 liter or so) of 3711 to get it active and then pitch that when it hits high krausen. Will get the flavor of the primary Dupont yeast, but allow that secondary strain where (IMHO) the flavor isn't as good, but it's easier and lower maintenance and super-attenautive to easily dry it out. However, in my experience, with proper temperature management (ie start cool and ramp up HOT) even with the Dupont yeast full attenuating in 5 days is never a problem without needing a secondary strain.

As far as sugar, anywhere from 10-20% of your fermentables will be fine. If going 10% I'd add it in the boil. If you're going to go higher than that, consider adding it in the fermenter as fermentation starts to die down.
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
Also I haven't heard of WLP590, said it was new, is that the same strain as 3711? My LHBS doesn't stock much White Labs (but they can get whatever I want by special order) so I'm usually not as familiar with their strains, especially not the new ones.
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
this is interesting. I often worry about yeast strains competing (and one outcompeting the other), but is there any specific logic behind using those two? E.g. one for saison-specific funky /spicy flavor, one for dryness?

I used WLP590 for my Rye Saison a few months ago, a new offering from While Labs (French Saison Yeast) and it was incredibly clean tasting and finished very dry with no stalling issues. Highly recommended.
Ive tried many different combos of saison yeasts. 3724 and 3711 seems to be the classic combo. Ive got the Omega Yeast labs "true hybrid" strain of those 2 blended with 3726 that gives great results, more peppery than fruity. Up until recently Ive kept all my other saison yeasts (WY3711, wlp565, wlp566, wlp585, RVA263, YB Wallonia Farmhouse) separate to experiemtn with blends. But after 2 saisons using 3711 and 566 I just combined them into a single container. Theres just something about the fruity and almost bubblegum/hefe flavors 566 can make combined with the absurd attenuation yet silky body that 3711 can do that makes it perfect for what I look for in a saison. I dont really worry too much about which strain ends up dominating the culture. I just let it do its thing
 
OP
H

Hayden512

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
156
Reaction score
17
Would you guys recommend a mash out because of the amount of wheat I have in this or should I hold off because I want it to dry out?
 

m00ps

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
6,908
Reaction score
2,167
Location
Paducah
I cant really think of a reason not to mash out. I always do, even for saisons. What temp are you mashing at? I like to do 148 for saisons. Though recently I did a multi-step mash with a protein and ferulic acid rest to see if the saison yeast will react to those compounds like a hefe yeast would
 

Qhrumphf

Stay Rude, Stay Rebel, Stay SHARP
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
16,427
Reaction score
5,960
Location
Arlington (DC)
You know, I thought I responded to this already, may have been an app glitch. Mash Out sets fermentability and gives you (marginally) higher yield. It prevents the wort from becoming overly fermentable during the sparge. It won't make the wort any LESS fermentable. With Saison, there's really no such thing as wort that is overly fermentable. So there's really no reason not to, but really not much of a reason to do one either.

I don't think clove is appropriate in a Saison, nor have I found any yeasts to produce 4-vinyl guaiacol (the clove phenol for which ferulic acid is a precursor), so I wouldn't think that would have much impact. Not saying no Saison strains produce clove, just not a character I've gotten in my experience. That said, I find that when using a bunch of adjuncts a protein rest makes lautering easier, but also slightly increases yield (I think by releasing starch bound up in protein, IIRC). You could get much of the same result using rice culls though. So I would sooner do a brief protein rest than do a mash-out. But why not do all three, protein, saccharifcation, and mash out? You could also follow the Dupont mash schedule, doughing in nice and low (100F or so) and raising 0.5 degrees F per minute until you reach mash out temp.
 

rhys333

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
2,982
Reaction score
1,014
Location
Edmonton
Any suggestion on how to make up for the color if i omit the c40?

I'm totally up to take it out as I want to do the style justice as its my favorite (just never brewed) but beersmith knocks the color down 2 points without it.
You can safely add 0.5% (or a touch more) chocolate malt for a little colour without impacting flavor at all. I do this regularly with my paler batches. I just added 0.8% black patent to the saison I have fermenting now.
 

Latest posts

Top