Help me plan my brew setup

[specialkayme]

I've been brewing on and off for about 15 years. I started when I was in college, super poor, and had to make do with some cheaper equipment options. I tried to incorporate one new piece of equipment with each batch, in order to spread the investment cost. Now I can afford better, but am stuck on what my options are.

Currently, I use a 12 gallon regular pot with lid that serves as my mash tun and kettle, with a (3 brews down) BIAB set up, all on the home stove. I ferment in glass carboys in my freezer turned fermentation vessel. It's not a perfect set up, as I have to use a ladder to hoist up the BIAB after mashing, and lifting those 6.5 or so gallons is heavy. Plus I'm losing considerable heat from the kettle that is serving as my mash tun, and my wife isn't super thrilled about using the stove for brew time.

I'm looking to increase my mash tun, kettle, brew options. The way I see it I have three options:

A: Slowly upgrade with 1) a 10 gallon cooler mash tun, 2) propane heating element, and 3) 15 gallon SS Kettle (total estimated cost probably $520 ish)

B: Slowly upgrade with 1) a 10 gallon SS mash tun, 2) propane heating element, and 3) 15 gallon SS Kettle (total estimated cost probably $770 ish)

C: Just go straight into an all in one, electric setup like UniBrau or Grainfather (probably end up costing $1,100 ish)

Upgrading slowly has its downsides. Namely I just get my system down, the incorporate a new piece of equipment that throws off my efficiency or boiloff rate or something else. But I'm also not dropping a grand upfront, and I get to try out alot of different brew options (like no sparge, fly sparge, and batch sparge) along the way.

I'm not fond of getting a cooler mash tun only to upgrade to a better mash tun in a few years, or scrap it all and go with an entire eBIAB system later on (not sure if I would though). On the flip side, I'm a simplistic kinda guy, and like to avoid electronics, pumps and "things that can break" if I can. So I'm not sure if the eBIAB setups are right for me. But then I would be able to really hone in my setup quickly. Plusses and minuses all around.

So I was wondering if anyone on here had any suggestions for me. Things I should keep in mind?

 

[teesherv]

I would imagine most of us have been on a similar path; start cheap and upgrade as you go/can. I got to a point where I spent so much on upgrading to what I thought was needed next but really didn't fit my style or needs as a brewer, so I finally started looking at it from that point. If I read you post correctly:
1. Get out of the kitchen so wife is happier
2. Look at heat loss
3. Increase mash run
4. Quit using the ladder to lift grains
5. Not a fan of electric.

Look at each one. Like getting out of kitchen. Easy enuf. Stop using ladder. Can you use a hoist instead? Heat loss. Would a cooler work or do you want to trying insulating the pot?
Once you look at what you really want to be able to do, tune you can look at getting the correct piece equipment.
Hope that helps.

 

[madscientist451]

Suggestions:
You didn't say if you are kegging....If not, I'd get that set up before any brewing equipment upgrade.
Things to keep in mind: Do you really need to brew 10 gallon batches and have a 15 gallon kettle? 10 gallons of one kind of beer is a lot to consume unless you're a party animal or always have guests around the house.
A 15 gallon kettle is a PITA to clean up, unless you have a dedicated heavy duty commercial style sink.
Also, do you have cash in hand or is the budget a problem?
If I had the extra money, I'd probably ditch my mash tun and go with a recirculating E-BIAB electric rig. Takes up less space, you could brew inside or out with a long enough power cord, and it just seems like an easier method compared to mashing and sparging in a cooler.

 

[specialkayme]

If I read you post correctly:
1. Get out of the kitchen so wife is happier
2. Look at heat loss
3. Increase mash run
4. Quit using the ladder to lift grains
5. Not a fan of electric.

I'd agree with 1-4. Not sure about 5 (never used it before so who knows).

Thing is, propane or electric would get me out of the kitchen. Done.
Cooler, SS Mashtun, or eBIAB would all "resolve" heat loss issues, increase mash tun, and remove the need to use a ladder/hoist. Done.
Question is, resolve all issues at once? Or slowly upgrade? Or resolve one issue at a time?

Suggestions:
You didn't say if you are kegging....

Been kegging for about two years now. Good suggestion though.

Things to keep in mind: Do you really need to brew 10 gallon batches and have a 15 gallon kettle?

Probably not. I do 5 gal batches. Sometimes smaller. But the price difference between 10 gallon and 15 gallon kettles isn't really that big of a difference. I figured if I was getting the equipment, why not go larger? I can do a 5 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle, but I can't do a 10 gallon batch in a 10 gallon kettle.

Also, do you have cash in hand or is the budget a problem?

Budget isn't "really" a problem. I don't want to spend any more cash than I need to, and cash ins't unlimited, but I can justify a greater price if its worthwhile.

If I had the extra money, I'd probably ditch my mash tun and go with a recirculating E-BIAB electric rig. Takes up less space, you could brew inside or out with a long enough power cord, and it just seems like an easier method compared to mashing and sparging in a cooler.

All of which makes it sound very appealing. And is giving me concerns about buying a $120 cooler mash tun like I was planning a few months ago.

But those systems are evolving VERY fast. In two years they've discontinued v1 and v2 systems, going only with v3 systems. What'll happen in 10 more years? If the temp controller, or the pump, or a seal/gasket/filter goes out, where will I be then? Probably buying a new system. Which gives me very large concerns.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I'd agree with 1-4. Not sure about 5 (never used it before so who knows).

Thing is, propane or electric would get me out of the kitchen. Done.
Cooler, SS Mashtun, or eBIAB would all "resolve" heat loss issues, increase mash tun, and remove the need to use a ladder/hoist. Done.
Question is, resolve all issues at once? Or slowly upgrade? Or resolve one issue at a time?



Been kegging for about two years now. Good suggestion though.



Probably not. I do 5 gal batches. Sometimes smaller. But the price difference between 10 gallon and 15 gallon kettles isn't really that big of a difference. I figured if I was getting the equipment, why not go larger? I can do a 5 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle, but I can't do a 10 gallon batch in a 10 gallon kettle.



Budget isn't "really" a problem. I don't want to spend any more cash than I need to, and cash ins't unlimited, but I can justify a greater price if its worthwhile.



All of which makes it sound very appealing. And is giving me concerns about buying a $120 cooler mash tun like I was planning a few months ago.

But those systems are evolving VERY fast. In two years they've discontinued v1 and v2 systems, going only with v3 systems. What'll happen in 10 more years? If the temp controller, or the pump, or a seal/gasket/filter goes out, where will I be then? Probably buying a new system. Which gives me very large concerns.

Just random thoughts, haven't had my coffee yet.

If propane, you'll be outside, or at best in a garage or carport, open to the world. Electric can go nearly anywhere, as long as you have a method to deal with the steam. Extra expense, if you have to upgrade your service, but very quiet, minimal fire hazard, never have to swap or fill tanks. Safer than fire, if done right.

I have a 15 gal kettle and do 5 and 10 gal. batches. It's a beast to clean, but I wouldn't change it for anything.

Never done BIAB, but my cheap cooler mash tun with copper tube and stainless screen manifold holds temp well enough, is easy to clean, and manageable for an old guy with a bad back. I just drag it to my woods and dump it out.

Electric controls don't have to be automated. I let a PID control my HLT, but I'm in command of everything else. It's cheap, simple, and I can fix it if it goes wrong. PWM controls for kettle element and pump speed. Digital readouts make for easy repeatability. Potentiometer knobs, not so much. I keep it simple. Everything, contactor coils, indicator lamps, cooling fan, all are 240v. The only low voltage are the two control wires from PID to SSR. A selector switch ensures that I can only power either HLT or kettle, and different plugs keep me from hooking anything up wrong. The plugs and enclosure cost more than all the fancy bits inside.

Pumps are a PITA, but they sure beat lifting and pouring. I only use mine for pushing hot wort through a CFC to the fermenter. Gravity does the rest. If I were only 8 feet tall, I wouldn't need a pump.

I don't like the all-in-one systems. Purely prejudice, I know. But there it is.

Enough rambling. You've got to decide what your dream system looks like. Then figure out how close you can come in real life. Then do it. Piecemeal or all at once, I can't help you there. Never had that option myself. Just try not to buy the same thing twice. Buy once, cry once, I think it goes. Good luck.

 

[specialkayme]

If propane, you'll be outside, or at best in a garage or carport, open to the world. Electric can go nearly anywhere, as long as you have a method to deal with the steam.

I live in the Piedmont region of NC. Typically outside isn't much of a concern to me. Summers sure are hot, but I can brew in the shade. Winters aren't too cold, typically in the 50's during the day (although stretches in the 40's isn't uncommon). I can live with brewing outside, understanding it isn't ideal. When it gets super cold, I can throw a few space heaters into a large shed I have.

I don't like the all-in-one systems. Purely prejudice, I know. But there it is.

That's more or less where I stand. I haven't used one before, so who knows. Maybe I'll love it. But I don't like the thought of it.

My brew day typically takes me about 6 hours, give or take, from tap water to finished cleaning up. The vast majority of that time right now is staring at a pot drinking beer and talking to a friend (or wife, or playing with my daughter). Currently it's typically so low key activity wise, that I end up drinking too much and I'm seeing double by cleanup (a friend wanted to watch me brew my last double batch, a 5 gal pale ale with a 3 gal mint chocolate milk stout staggered an hour behind, and he kept asking if he could help with something. "not really" I kept replying. He noticed there wasn't much to actually do once you get started. Throw some things in a pot, take some things out of a pot, drink beer and you're done). I can't imagine a process that makes it faster, less involved, and requires me to actually lift less or do less. I might die of alcohol poisoning at that point.

Enough rambling. You've got to decide what your dream system looks like. Then figure out how close you can come in real life. Then do it. Piecemeal or all at once, I can't help you there. Never had that option myself. Just try not to buy the same thing twice. Buy once, cry once, I think it goes. Good luck.

Trouble is, I have no idea what my "dream system" would look like. Propane or electric . . . cheap components that work well or expensive components . . . I don't really know . . .

Right now I imagine a cooler mash tun with a decent kettle on a propane heater would work perfectly fine for me. But I don't know if once I get a cooler mash tun, if I'd then realize I really need one of those more expensive SS mash tuns. If I do, I wasted the money on the cooler mash tun. Or if I decide eBIAB is really the way to go. At that point, I'd drop another $1,2k on a system AFTER I spent $700+ on the current system.

The more I read, the more podcasts I listen to, the more options become apparent, and the more indecisive I get.

 

[brew703]

Cheapest option is get a propane burner and use what you have and brew outside. It's what I do. I assume you have a BIAB bag or custom made filter basket for your kettle.
I mash/boil in my 10 gal kettle. I have an insulated sleeping bag that covers my kettle during the mash. I might loose 1-2 degrees during the mash. If you are losing temps during the mash, insulate your kettle.
Also, get rid of the glass carboys. Those things are heavy. Go with PET or get a Brew Bucket.
You can always just drop the coin and go all electric. But that's gonna be $2k+.

 

[specialkayme]

Cheapest option is get a propane burner and use what you have and brew outside.

The most reasonable option is probably to get a propane burner now, and reevaluate after a few brews.

From there, decide if I want to go with a cooler mash tun, and try that for a few brews.
From there, decide if I want to go with a kettle with a pour spout on the end to save me from picking up that heavy darn thing.
From there, decide if I like my cooler mash tun, or if I want to go with a more advanced SS style one.
From there, decide if I want to throw it all away and switch to an eBIAB system.

But with each step I take in that direction, an eBIAB system becomes less feasible. With each $100, $300, or more I spend on equipment, it's hard for me to walk away from it by switching to an electronic system. But I could do it more comfortably now. If I were to at all.

I have an insulated sleeping bag that covers my kettle during the mash. I might loose 1-2 degrees during the mash. If you are losing temps during the mash, insulate your kettle.

I have a not so good sleeping bag I could use. Didn't think of that.

I've heard of others wrapping blankets around your boil pot, or buying water heater insulation material to accomplish the same thing. I never have because I was afraid I'd ruin whatever it is I'd be using to wrap the pot with. If I need to buy something, I'd just be better off buying a mash tun.

Also, get rid of the glass carboys. Those things are heavy. Go with PET or get a Brew Bucket.

With all do respect, NOT ON YOUR LIFE.

In all seriousness, I have a brew bucket that I use occasionally as a first couple day primary. But I don't use it much.

I started brewing about 15 years ago. A ton of things were instilled on me that probably weren't true and really didn't matter. Maybe they did back then though. One of which is the use of plastic in fermenting. There were a ton of discussions back then about offgassing of plastic and how it imparted off flavors to your beer. There were also a ton of discussions about how scratches and scuffs would occur on plastic sides/bottoms which made for wonderful harbors of bacteria and wild yeast, making it progressively harder to sanitize. All probably not as true as it once was. But 15 years ago the "brew kit all extracts" used buckets. After a few brews, you upgraded to glass, and never looked back. I respect my beer too much to ferment in plastic. Or at least that's how I feel. Weird, I know.

There are a ton of things I do that fall in that category though. Like having nearly zero headspace. I was always taught it helps the flavor of the beer. Brulosophy tells me that's poppycock. I recognize it, but if the zero headspace doesn't make the flavor worse, it sure makes me feel more comfortable working that way, so I'm not about to change anytime soon.

 

[brew703]

The most reasonable option is probably to get a propane burner now, and reevaluate after a few brews.

From there, decide if I want to go with a cooler mash tun, and try that for a few brews.
From there, decide if I want to go with a kettle with a pour spout on the end to save me from picking up that heavy darn thing.
From there, decide if I like my cooler mash tun, or if I want to go with a more advanced SS style one.
From there, decide if I want to throw it all away and switch to an eBIAB system.

But with each step I take in that direction, an eBIAB system becomes less feasible. With each $100, $300, or more I spend on equipment, it's hard for me to walk away from it by switching to an electronic system. But I could do it more comfortably now. If I were to at all.



I have a not so good sleeping bag I could use. Didn't think of that.

I've heard of others wrapping blankets around your boil pot, or buying water heater insulation material to accomplish the same thing. I never have because I was afraid I'd ruin whatever it is I'd be using to wrap the pot with. If I need to buy something, I'd just be better off buying a mash tun.



With all do respect, NOT ON YOUR LIFE.

In all seriousness, I have a brew bucket that I use occasionally as a first couple day primary. But I don't use it much.

I started brewing about 15 years ago. A ton of things were instilled on me that probably weren't true and really didn't matter. Maybe they did back then though. One of which is the use of plastic in fermenting. There were a ton of discussions back then about offgassing of plastic and how it imparted off flavors to your beer. There were also a ton of discussions about how scratches and scuffs would occur on plastic sides/bottoms which made for wonderful harbors of bacteria and wild yeast, making it progressively harder to sanitize. All probably not as true as it once was. But 15 years ago the "brew kit all extracts" used buckets. After a few brews, you upgraded to glass, and never looked back. I respect my beer too much to ferment in plastic. Or at least that's how I feel. Weird, I know.

There are a ton of things I do that fall in that category though. Like having nearly zero headspace. I was always taught it helps the flavor of the beer. Brulosophy tells me that's poppycock. I recognize it, but if the zero headspace doesn't make the flavor worse, it sure makes me feel more comfortable working that way, so I'm not about to change anytime soon.

I've been brewing for 4 years and I've used glass carboys from the get go until I switched to brewing 5 gallons for kegging purposes. I switched to PET carboys and havent noticed any issues with off flavors. Not saying it cant happen if you transfer hot wort to plastic. For that reason, I'm thinking on getting a Brew Bucket since I have issued getting my wort below 80-85 degrees. Damn ground water is hot down here.

I also tried the reflective stuff but didn't help. The sleeping bag is what helped the most.

I've been thinking about going electric so i can brew inside. That's about a $2k investment and I dont have my man cave yet so i would be brewing in my garage where i am now so going electric defeats the purpose at the moment. It gets HOT here in the summer and with a propane burner going it's almost uncomfortable. And I'm not sure I would like electric but the thought of having a panel to control everything is pretty nice. And everyone who has moved to electric love it.

Decisions, decisions.

 

[Murphys_Law]

The only comment I have, for what it’s worth, is regarding the kettle size. I started with an 8G kettle doing partial mash for about a month.

One brew day I got a little drunk and 2 days later a 15G Bayou showed up on my door step ready for 10G batches. I’ve brewed 1 10G batch in 3 years.

Last year I upgraded to a 10G Spike and haven’t looked back. For me it’s perfect for 5G batches. Easier to clean, store, manage heat, etc.

I’ve talked to a few people who thought a 15G is more versatile but in reality never needed the capacity.

 

[bendog15]

1- move it outside
2- banjo propane burner. Cheap and quiet (and badass)
3- get a beer keg, find a welder to cut the top off and put a few ports in. Now u have a 15 gal indestructible kettle.
4- buy a 10 gal cooler off CL, put a ball valve in the nozzle area.
That’s been my setup for 7 years. I heat strike water in the keggle. Mash in a 10 gal cooler (i use a BIAB in the mash tun) after mashing, raise the bag with a pulley to drain. Transfer liquid back to keggle and boil. I use a jaded chiller to chill wort. Been churning out 10 gal batches for a long time. Works great, easy to clean, cheap and efficient. Wouldn’t change a thing.

 

[augiedoggy]

Cheapest option is get a propane burner and use what you have and brew outside. It's what I do. I assume you have a BIAB bag or custom made filter basket for your kettle.
I mash/boil in my 10 gal kettle. I have an insulated sleeping bag that covers my kettle during the mash. I might loose 1-2 degrees during the mash. If you are losing temps during the mash, insulate your kettle.
Also, get rid of the glass carboys. Those things are heavy. Go with PET or get a Brew Bucket.
You can always just drop the coin and go all electric. But that's gonna be $2k+.

propane costs more than electric for me to brew so for how long is propane the cheapest option soley depends on how often one brews..
where I live it snows, a lot. and I do most of my brewing indoors during the winter when there is little else to do. I love the electric aspect of my brewery because the temps are completely controlled and I dont have to constantly monitor and adjust things.
my original electric system was less than $500 total...I upgraded things because I wanted to as the engineering aspect of tweaking my system became as much fun as brewing. I did not need to.
A person can buy a cheap 15 gallon stainless kettle for under $100 install about $15 worth of hardware on it so it has a ball valve.. and use an inexpensive 24v or 12v dc pump (like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G305PK0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) and build an inexpensive pid controller for another $150-200 and have a capable system with a $30 ulwd element. if they want 3 vessel or herms or rims then they can add on and not have to sell the limited boxed system which is usually a compromise setup. there is no reason they have to spend 2 grand just to have an electric brewing system..(even my current 3 vessel+ rims brucontrol system cost less than that) The options are vast. as well as the persons priorities (unlike murphys law I do a lot of 10 gallon brews as well as 5g so the 16gallon bayous work great for me)

If your dead set against building a 240v control panel or even a $40 stilldragon style ssvr control box to control a 240v element then your options are going to cost quite a bit more as the markups for labor on the prebuilt boxes are usually more than the component costs. Its like comparing the cost of a 12pack of craft beer vs how much it costs you to make it...

 

[augiedoggy]

1- move it outside
2- banjo propane burner. Cheap and quiet (and badass)
3- get a beer keg, find a welder to cut the top off and put a few ports in. Now u have a 15 gal indestructible kettle.
4- buy a 10 gal cooler off CL, put a ball valve in the nozzle area.
That’s been my setup for 7 years. I heat strike water in the keggle. Mash in a 10 gal cooler (i use a BIAB in the mash tun) after mashing, raise the bag with a pulley to drain. Transfer liquid back to keggle and boil. I use a jaded chiller to chill wort. Been churning out 10 gal batches for a long time. Works great, easy to clean, cheap and efficient. Wouldn’t change a thing.

But have you used anything else like electric?
Its one thing to say this if its all you've used and another if you have experience doing it other ways.. You might find some things you would change.

 

[beernutz]

My home-based 3 vessel brewing setup pictured in my avatar is natural gas powered.
However I wanted a system I could take on the road so for my portable brewing setup I use an outside propane-powered BIAB system using a keggle from my existing home system, an old burner originally bought for turkey frying (you can buy very nice banjo classic burners for $50 on amazon or spring for one of the expensive ones made for brewing), and my ladder.

I bought my used keg, cut the top hole with an angle grinder, and added ball valve, sight gauge, and dial thermometer for around $125 total but there are many pre-made options for kettles out there.

The only piece of equipment I didn't already have to complete the portable setup was a Wilser BIAB bag and double hoist (~$45 shipped IIRC). If you have a Costco membership propane refills are like $8 and are pretty cheap at Tractor Supply Warehouses as well. I tend to get 3 10 gallon brews from a 20# propane tank so that cost is negligible. I use a roll of Reflectix (~$20 but I already owned it) to wrap the keggle and cover the lid for insulation and lose only a couple degrees.

I've used this cheap portable 10 gallon setup about 6 times in the last year in various locations including the picture below from a brew day at Fairhope Brewing Company in Fairhope, AL and it has worked great.

So portability, low upfront and ongoing costs, and effective/efficient brewing make this an attractive option imo.