Help me pick; English vs. American

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Bobby_M

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I have to finalize my recipe for the all grain seminar this coming Sunday. Based on the hops I have on hand, I put together two recipes; an English Bitter and APA. Let me know if either looks better than the other.

I'm trying more of a hop burst technique at the 15 minute mark which is why the 60min addition is so small.
[size=+1]Papa'z Mantra Pale (RDWHAHB)[/size]
[size=-1]10-A American Pale Ale[/size]

08.jpg


Size: 12 gal
Efficiency: 85.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 174.15 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.052 (1.045 - 1.060)
|===============#================|
Terminal Gravity: 1.013 (1.010 - 1.015)
|=================#==============|
Color: 8.23 (5.0 - 14.0)
|=============#==================|
Alcohol: 5.15% (4.5% - 6.2%)
|==============#=================|
Bitterness: 38.3 (30.0 - 45.0)
|================#===============|

[size=-1]Ingredients:[/size]
18.0 lb Maris Otter Pale
1.0 lb Bonlander Munich Malt
1.0 lb Vienna Malt
0.25 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 120L
.5 lb White Wheat Malt
1.0 oz Amarillo (8.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
3.0 oz Centennial (9.50%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2.0 oz Cascade (7.5%) - added during boil, boiled 3.0 min
1.0 ea Fermentis US-56 Safale US-56

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Next up is the English option, named in honor of the awesome HBO series John Adams.

[size=+1]Embassador Adams Bitter[/size]
[size=-1]8-A Standard/Ordinary Bitter[/size]

09.jpg


Size: 12 gal
Efficiency: 85.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 121.95 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.037 (1.032 - 1.040)
|=================#==============|
Terminal Gravity: 1.009 (1.007 - 1.011)
|================#===============|
Color: 9.07 (4.0 - 14.0)
|================#===============|
Alcohol: 3.61% (3.2% - 3.8%)
|==================#=============|
Bitterness: 30.1 (25.0 - 35.0)
|================#===============|

[size=-1]Ingredients:[/size]
14.0 lb Maris Otter Pale
.5 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 80L
2.0 oz Pale Chocolate Malt
2.0 oz East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
4.0 oz Fuggle (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0 min
1.0 ea Danstar 3767 Nottingham


Both will be single infusion mashed at 152F for 60mins. Help me pick one.
 
I've gotta say, the APA looks more delicious to me. I'd be afraid of the English being a little...um, insubstantial. Not bad, just less "there." That's my personal recommendation.
 
I vote for the English. Looks to be a tasty session beer.

I'm a big fan of handing someone a very tasty beer and then telling them its less than 4% alcohol when they say how much they like it. But that's just me. I like session beers.
 
I freaking love a good bitter. I made a batch of Orfy's Boddington's Bitter and it was my fastest flowing keg. I've got another in primary right now. If you haven't made a good one for yourself yet, I'd highly encourage you to do so.

Also, APA's are getting pretty common around here. Most HB'ers have made them, and a lot of liquor stores carry them. Finding a good/decent bitter, in these here parts is a totally different story. Part of the reason I got into brewing was to expand my horizons, and this is an excellent opportunity if you haven't made a bitter yet!

Plus, EKG hops are delicious :D. Oh, and you might want to mash it at 154; English beers seem to benefit from a little bit higher of a mash temp. I also scaled my recipe up to a bit of a higher gravity, you may find a "standard" bitter a little thin. Best Bitters and ESB's might be a little more familiar to the standard American brewer.
 
The second recipe. The first recipe reminds me of a British ale with the MO and dark crystal.
 
mr x said:
The second recipe. The first recipe reminds me of a British ale with the MO and dark crystal.

Yeah, I know what you're saying. I just use MO as my base malt for just about anything now and the only distinction in keeping it American is the yeast and hop bill.
 
They both look really good. FWIW, I went through the same debate for this coming weekend's brew, since I need something light and drinkable and have both Fuggles and Cascade in bulk. I decided to go with the English bitter, using Jamil's basic recipe (which has a little bit more crystal - a half-pound for five gallons - and some Special Roast).
 
I say make it an ESB. Use the first recipe grain bill and the second recipe's hops. Mmmmnnnnn.......:cross:
 
Does anyone think the bitter has anything glaringly wrong? I was actually going to go with the Jamil recipe but I don't have special roast. I think a small amount of Chocolate is the next closest thing.

Admittedly the larger late hopping of 4oz of Fuggle is out of style for a bitter but I'm hopping to get closer to the hop flavor of Goose Island's Honker's Ale.

If I can find some Nottingham in short order, I'll mash higher. If not, I'll have to go with Windsor or S-04 that I have on hand and I'll mash a little cooler since they're not as attenuative.
 
Ben, why are you pimping those hops so hard man? LOL... I have the same hops and my Amarillo is getting really old. Actually, that's another reason I'm still considering the bitter because I have 4oz of Fuggle I need to use up.
 
I *think* the Special Roast is going to be a little toasty, not really roasty per se (but this is my first time using it). I'm wondering how close you would be with a little bit of home-toasted pale malt in lieu of the choc (which should be fine, especially in that small an amount).
 
rnrchemnerd said:
I say make it an ESB. Use the first recipe grain bill and the second recipe's hops. Mmmmnnnnn.......:cross:

A classic ESB's not going to have either Munich or Vienna, it really won't be too different from the bitter's grain bill (just a bit more of it). Munich and Vienna aren't classic British malts, you know? It would still be GOOD.... just not really an ESB.
 
You know, I think some Victory would be a nice sub for the Special Roast if you've got any. It's a little lighter, but kinda in the same vein. I've only tasted a couple grains of the Special Roast, but it's not really "roasty" at all, it's not really analagous to the chocolate malt.

EDIT: that's PALE chocolate; I haven't scored any of that yet. I'll stand ny my statement that I think Victory would work great, though.
 
Consider the audience.

Established beers snobs...give em a good APA.

More mainstream beer drinkers...go with the lower IBU bitters.

Only...don't call it "bitters". Tis a good English Pale Ale.

I find that using the term "bitters" gets peoples tastebuds on the defensive if they don't know their beer styles.
 
Bobby_M said:
Ben, why are you pimping those hops so hard man? LOL... I have the same hops and my Amarillo is getting really old. Actually, that's another reason I'm still considering the bitter because I have 4oz of Fuggle I need to use up.

Same reason, I don't want them to get too old...
 
Ok, I nixed the chocolate and added Victory. I'm glad I was convinced of this because I now remember that I put some chocolate into an ESB attempt and felt like I ended up with an English Brown....

I also switched to a special bitter and added an extra pound of MO to get it into to proper OG range. It's on the low side but I'll probably do near 90% effeciency on this one.

The other thing I changed was to swap 2oz of Fuggle from the flavor addition for the 2oz of EKG I had at the bittering spot. I think I'd rather have more EKG shine throught the finish because it's a fresher hop. The Fuggle is 05.

[size=+2]Embassador Adams Bitter[/size]
[size=+1]8-B Special/Best/Premium Bitter[/size]

08.jpg


Size: 12 gal
Efficiency: 85.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 133.42 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.040 (1.040 - 1.048)
|========#=======================|
Terminal Gravity: 1.010 (1.008 - 1.012)
|================#===============|
Color: 8.25 (5.0 - 16.0)
|============#===================|
Alcohol: 3.95% (3.8% - 4.6%)
|==========#=====================|
Bitterness: 29.5 (25.0 - 40.0)
|============#===================|

[size=+1]Ingredients:[/size]
15.0 lb Maris Otter Pale
.5 lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 80L
.5 lb Victory® Malt
2.0 oz Fuggle (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 60 min
2.0 oz East Kent Goldings (5.0%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
2.0 oz Fuggle (4.8%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
1.0 ea Danstar 3767 Nottingham
 
That looks like it'll be a damn nice beer.

I'm actually debating now... the bitter I have on the docket for this weekend, I was planning on using S-04 since the OG's going to be right around 1.038 - 1.040 (pretty much like your recipe, just with a *little bit* more crystal and the Special Roast). I do have some Notty kicking around, though.

You're not worried the Notty will dry it out TOO much? I just don't know which would be a better choice....
 
You want a pretty dry finish for a bitter. The FG range is 1.007-11. Nottingham makes a decent bitter but you will want to ferment on the warmer end (~68-70F) so that you can generate some fruity esters.
 
Bobby_M said:
Ok, I nixed the chocolate and added Victory. I'm glad I was convinced of this because I now remember that I put some chocolate into an ESB attempt and felt like I ended up with an English Brown....

I'm glad you all figured that out, too, as some Engligh Browns are little more than Pale Ales with some chocolate added. For some reason, I wasn't thinking "English Bitter" when I looked at that recipe before, just "English beer." I like the way that recipe looks for an S/B/P Bitter.


TL
 
If I had to go with S-04 or Windsor, I'd mash 152 but with Notty, I'll go 154F.

The truth is, I'd much rather er on the dryer side. I've had a few beers finish just a wee too sweet to make them quaffable. I've never had a dryer beer I couldn't drink ya know?
 
I don't like ordinary bitter, so I didn't say anything.
Now, you're changing it to a best bitter, I'll give you the benefits of my prejudices.
I vote for the best bitter, but with a few changes.

I'd up the M.O. to 17# The best best bitters aren't the ones that are right on the edge of being ordinary bitters.

I'd up the crystal 80 to 1# (possibly 1.5#), or replace it with 1# crystal 120 - 150. (0.5# crystal 80 would produce a beer that I would consider anemic).

I'd drop the biscuit because I don't like it. (My crystal changes assume no biscuit.) Your combination of crystal and biscuit could be OK to other people, but would be rather pale by my standards.

Mash at 1 qt per lb grain instead of whatever you normally use. This will allow you to mash cooler, and increase your efficiency by using more sparge water.

You need more bittering hops, especially as you are increasing the OG.
I'd use either 3 or 4 oz fuggles at 60 minutes. If you have another ounce available, you could add it at 20 minutes, and add the 2 oz EKG with no more than 5 minutes left.

Lastly, Nottingham has no place in any sort of bitter. 002 and 168 are excellent. S-04 is very good.


On the other hand, if you'r presenting this at a seminar on Sunday, perhaps you should go with the APA, rather than believing me or making too many changes.

-a.
 
I think I've decided to go with Notty mashed higher, even if it ends up being a bit too clean. I've got an American Strong Ale that's festering in my mind (basically a big American IPA with fewer late addition hops and a more-pronounced maltiness), and it'd be nice to pitch that right on a cake of Notty (but not the S-04).
 
I'm pretty much forced into Notty because I only have one pack of S-04 on hand. I think it will be a decent beer in any case. I'm going to increase my IBU a bit by moving an ounce of Fuggle out of the flavor addition to the bittering and call it good. We'll see in 6 weeks.
 
There's nothing wrong with Nottingham in a bitter if you keep the temps higher. You want a bitter to be dry so it's great for that, the only problem is at 'normal' ale temps (say around 65F) you don't get the fruity esters. If you raise the temp up to ~70F you will get some (not a lot, but enough that they are noticeable).
 
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