Lazer Wolf Brewing
Well-Known Member
Probably not ready yet but how did the brew go? Anxious to clone this but I think ill wait and see how your last recipe turned out.
Help me make a Breaking Bud clone
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Probably not ready yet but how did the brew go? Anxious to clone this but I think ill wait and see how your last recipe turned out.
OP
OP
Well, I continue to make mental errors during the brew process, so it is hard to be sure. I've decided for time reasons to do one three day dry-hop addition rather than two, and I added that dry hop on Monday night and plan to cold crash for 2-3 days on Thursday night, then put a gallon in a Synek bag for a week of force carbing and bottle the rest.
This time, I actually have some Breaking Bad bottles in the house to compare to my result.
The main thing I can say so far is that the second recipe's dialing back a little on the early bittering in favor of quite a bit bigger late additions seems to be a move in the right direction. I think this one is more balanced than the last.
I went quite a bit finer with the Barley Mill, with the result that I got all kinds of pump noise and bubbles during the mash. it never fully stuck, but it was not a fun experience.
It was odd. I tried grain conditioning for the first two times that weekend. I sprayed, stirred, sprayed, stirred over and over agan, then let it sit for 15-20 minutes before putting the grain in the kettle. The Luckiest Man recipe seemed to work a lot better with this procedure on Saturday than my clone did on Sunday. Grain bills were a little different, of course, but i do not get why the difference in result noise-wise was as great as it was.
This time, I actually have some Breaking Bad bottles in the house to compare to my result.
The main thing I can say so far is that the second recipe's dialing back a little on the early bittering in favor of quite a bit bigger late additions seems to be a move in the right direction. I think this one is more balanced than the last.
I went quite a bit finer with the Barley Mill, with the result that I got all kinds of pump noise and bubbles during the mash. it never fully stuck, but it was not a fun experience.
It was odd. I tried grain conditioning for the first two times that weekend. I sprayed, stirred, sprayed, stirred over and over agan, then let it sit for 15-20 minutes before putting the grain in the kettle. The Luckiest Man recipe seemed to work a lot better with this procedure on Saturday than my clone did on Sunday. Grain bills were a little different, of course, but i do not get why the difference in result noise-wise was as great as it was.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
Not sure if got your water questions addressed; but the recipe looked like a NE IPA (i.e. "juicy" IPA) and this is a sytle where the sulfate/choride ratio is critical. There are a few threads on this if you search for "Northeast IPA"...good luck!
OP
OP
Ahh, I wound up building my water entirely around ideas from the Northeast IPA thread. Breaking Bud is a west coast ale, but it is juicy as all get out and I am in DC, so I figured why not mix em up?
bcunning82
Member
Brewed this up this weekend. Ended up over shooting my gravity a bit to 1.067. I followed the recipe on the 1st page but used US-05 since I did not have my act together enough to make a starter. I will do a side by side once done post the results.
brew703
Well-Known Member
I brewed this on 3/25 using US-05. Missed OG by 5 points on the low side. Not sure why that happened. FG was right on target. Bottled on 4/15. Sample was not overly hopped so I'm optimistic.
I'll try a bottle this coming weekend.
I'll try a bottle this coming weekend.
OP
OP
I am happy to see others are trying this clone as well, and really look forward to learning how others turn out. I think I have useful new data points to offer, albeit about version 1 of Breaking Bud.
I was at my LHBS a few weeks ago when I saw someone drop off three bottles for a homebrew competition and decided since dropping it off was so easy, it had to be time for my first competition, ready or not!
I had three brews at home at the time, but the brown ale came out pretty dull, so I decided against entering that one. I could not enter my Citra-Mosaic, because I did not have three logo free bottles of this brew as required by the rules. Apparently that is a way to prevent cueing the judges into the ID of a participant, I dunno.
I had four bottles left of my first version of Breaking Bud and one had a logo, leaving me exactly the number of bottles needed to enter. The beer was a little past its peak, and I've already noted some errors previously, but I think the notes I got were helpful.
I've transcribed them as best I could with spelling, punctuation, etc intact. Handwriting quality was mixed, so there are likely some errors. First, some info about my judging panel:
Judge 1. BJCP Provisional - Professional Brewer & Certified Cicerone
Judge 2. BJCP Certified
Judge 3. BJCP Grand Master
And now notes from three categories:
AROMA
Judge 1 - Papaya, Guava, Grape, Pinapple, Esters are low or over powered by Hops. Hops are Big and Fruity. Very Tropical.
Judge 2 - Moderate hop aroma of stone fruit - apricot moderate citrus - grapefruit peel, low soup (?) like (lite?) lemon note, no diacetyl, no DMS.
Judge 3 - Fruity hops have an over-ripe aspect. Malt has a nutty character. Esters are not any distinct fruit type. Some herbal hops emerge as sample warms.
FLAVOR
Judge 1 - Pine, Pinapple, lacks behind aroma a little, malt is bready and present in a supporting take.
Judge 2 - Moderate citrus hop up front, moderately low toffee like malt sweetness, the finish has an onion like note. Moderately high hop bitterness balanced decidedly towards hops. Finishes moderately dry.
Judge 3 - Resiny hop flavor has an oxidized edge. Malt is grainy with a nutty edge. Fruity, but no distinct fruit is identifiable. Balanced towards hops. Dries somewhat at the finish, with a lingering resiny hop flavor.
OVERALL
Judge 1 - A very good example of an American IPA. The aroma is very tropical and does not match the flavor. Flavor is good but lacks a little. Bitterness falls behind a little, but overall is good.
Judge 2 - Overall this was a solid IPA. The aroma could be increased - consider increasing aroma/dry hops by 100%. The onion note in the flavor was a little distracting from the citrus and malt balance. Try to identify if it was cause by a specific hop in the recipe and consider replacing.
Judge 3 - A solidly hopped and well balanced IPA. Seems to be showing signs of age and oxidation detracting from overall drinking pleasure. Avoid post-fermentation air exposure to avoid this.
I'd like to know what others think of this. I think it supports my decision in version 2 to cut the bittering in favor of a big increase in late boil hops. I also think it supports the decision to mash higher this time. The judges found this to be moderately dry, and while that is a good thing for many IPAs, I am not so sure it is a good idea when the main goal is a fruit bomb. I mashed about 6F higher for the later one, but then lost temp control for a while, so I don't have any sound conclusions on that front yet, esp since so far I have just the forced carb version from the Synek, which has its own issues.
As for two specific points - One, I did not notice the onion notes, but the brew is gone now, so I cannot recheck. There seem to be a fair number of onion complaints concerning the 2015 Mosaic (and Citra, FWIW) crops. A better educated palate than mine very well could detect onion, I guess. I do not detect it in the new brew, but I used a fair amount of 2014 Mosaic for that one, and I do not recall seeing that complaint about 2014 Mosaic. Version 3 will take me back to the 2015 crop.
Two, oxidation. Dunno how much of what the Grand Master tasted is due to age and what is due to process, but I definitely plan to be more careful about this next time.
Any thoughts on this? I think that in addition to reduced bittering in favor of late hop additions, we also need to figure out how to improve the aroma/flavor balance. Suggestions?
I was at my LHBS a few weeks ago when I saw someone drop off three bottles for a homebrew competition and decided since dropping it off was so easy, it had to be time for my first competition, ready or not!
I had three brews at home at the time, but the brown ale came out pretty dull, so I decided against entering that one. I could not enter my Citra-Mosaic, because I did not have three logo free bottles of this brew as required by the rules. Apparently that is a way to prevent cueing the judges into the ID of a participant, I dunno.
I had four bottles left of my first version of Breaking Bud and one had a logo, leaving me exactly the number of bottles needed to enter. The beer was a little past its peak, and I've already noted some errors previously, but I think the notes I got were helpful.
I've transcribed them as best I could with spelling, punctuation, etc intact. Handwriting quality was mixed, so there are likely some errors. First, some info about my judging panel:
Judge 1. BJCP Provisional - Professional Brewer & Certified Cicerone
Judge 2. BJCP Certified
Judge 3. BJCP Grand Master
And now notes from three categories:
AROMA
Judge 1 - Papaya, Guava, Grape, Pinapple, Esters are low or over powered by Hops. Hops are Big and Fruity. Very Tropical.
Judge 2 - Moderate hop aroma of stone fruit - apricot moderate citrus - grapefruit peel, low soup (?) like (lite?) lemon note, no diacetyl, no DMS.
Judge 3 - Fruity hops have an over-ripe aspect. Malt has a nutty character. Esters are not any distinct fruit type. Some herbal hops emerge as sample warms.
FLAVOR
Judge 1 - Pine, Pinapple, lacks behind aroma a little, malt is bready and present in a supporting take.
Judge 2 - Moderate citrus hop up front, moderately low toffee like malt sweetness, the finish has an onion like note. Moderately high hop bitterness balanced decidedly towards hops. Finishes moderately dry.
Judge 3 - Resiny hop flavor has an oxidized edge. Malt is grainy with a nutty edge. Fruity, but no distinct fruit is identifiable. Balanced towards hops. Dries somewhat at the finish, with a lingering resiny hop flavor.
OVERALL
Judge 1 - A very good example of an American IPA. The aroma is very tropical and does not match the flavor. Flavor is good but lacks a little. Bitterness falls behind a little, but overall is good.
Judge 2 - Overall this was a solid IPA. The aroma could be increased - consider increasing aroma/dry hops by 100%. The onion note in the flavor was a little distracting from the citrus and malt balance. Try to identify if it was cause by a specific hop in the recipe and consider replacing.
Judge 3 - A solidly hopped and well balanced IPA. Seems to be showing signs of age and oxidation detracting from overall drinking pleasure. Avoid post-fermentation air exposure to avoid this.
I'd like to know what others think of this. I think it supports my decision in version 2 to cut the bittering in favor of a big increase in late boil hops. I also think it supports the decision to mash higher this time. The judges found this to be moderately dry, and while that is a good thing for many IPAs, I am not so sure it is a good idea when the main goal is a fruit bomb. I mashed about 6F higher for the later one, but then lost temp control for a while, so I don't have any sound conclusions on that front yet, esp since so far I have just the forced carb version from the Synek, which has its own issues.
As for two specific points - One, I did not notice the onion notes, but the brew is gone now, so I cannot recheck. There seem to be a fair number of onion complaints concerning the 2015 Mosaic (and Citra, FWIW) crops. A better educated palate than mine very well could detect onion, I guess. I do not detect it in the new brew, but I used a fair amount of 2014 Mosaic for that one, and I do not recall seeing that complaint about 2014 Mosaic. Version 3 will take me back to the 2015 crop.
Two, oxidation. Dunno how much of what the Grand Master tasted is due to age and what is due to process, but I definitely plan to be more careful about this next time.
Any thoughts on this? I think that in addition to reduced bittering in favor of late hop additions, we also need to figure out how to improve the aroma/flavor balance. Suggestions?
bcunning82
Member
Just tapped into my clone attempt. I ended up over shooting my gravity and over attenuating to about 7.5%abv.
Appearance: pretty close. Clone is a bit darker and has some haze. Clone on the left.
Aroma: original has a big pineapple aroma, clone has similar aroma but is masked by a peachy estery aroma typical of US-05. Next time will use San Diego super yeast or US-05 at a lower temp to minimize this.
Flavor: very similar, original is a bit brighter. Clone is a little more bitterness. Difference in flavor is not nearly as distinct as it is with the aroma.
Overall: I am happy with the clone beer, it is very good. As stated above I think this could be dialed in with cleaner fermentation. I named it Cracking Bud because it is quite cloned therefore but quite Breaking Bud
Appearance: pretty close. Clone is a bit darker and has some haze. Clone on the left.
Aroma: original has a big pineapple aroma, clone has similar aroma but is masked by a peachy estery aroma typical of US-05. Next time will use San Diego super yeast or US-05 at a lower temp to minimize this.
Flavor: very similar, original is a bit brighter. Clone is a little more bitterness. Difference in flavor is not nearly as distinct as it is with the aroma.
Overall: I am happy with the clone beer, it is very good. As stated above I think this could be dialed in with cleaner fermentation. I named it Cracking Bud because it is quite cloned therefore but quite Breaking Bud
OP
OP
Looking really good, including my favorite glasses.
What would you differently next time?
What would you differently next time?
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
I'm doing this one next.
Any other tips on this beer?
Is there a preferred mash temp agreed upon?
Any other tips on this beer?
Is there a preferred mash temp agreed upon?
OP
OP
A system crash some months back led to a wiped HD, so my notes are gone, but from re-reading my notes here, I seem to have concluded that mashing higher, around 156F, was the right idea to maximize juiciness.
By the way, Breaking Bud just took Bronze in the American Style IPA category at the GABF.
By the way, Breaking Bud just took Bronze in the American Style IPA category at the GABF.
OP
OP
It is time to try this one again. A guy with a lot more skill than I have did a presentation on this beer:
https://prezi.com/5d9dit6bdgvh/breaking-the-bud-code/
He said he'd do it once a month and enter the final result in a contest, but that was a year ago with no follow up. I've tried to reach him without success. I want to steal as many of his ideas as I can, but I have at least four problems: First, he says he degassed a sample of the brew and determined it had a FG of something like 1.0065! Two, he debates between mashing at 148 and 150F. Three he debates between neutral and hoppy water profiles. Four, his final grain bill gives an SRM of less than 3, when one of the givens from the brewer is an SRM of 5.0.
This FG and temp imply a very dry beer, and I do not think of this being dry at all. I also can't imagine ever getting as low as that with my setup. And I think the water calls for a NEIPA setup.
He has convinced me to bring my wheat percentage back up, and to use CTZ elsewhere, not just in the 60 minute boil. Here is the beginning of my next recipe. Right now, it stops at the end of the boil, but I plan to add whirlpool and dry hop stages as well. The issue for those is budget as much as anything else. I plan to throw in a LOT of hops.
Here is where I am at now:
7 lbs 11.9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 85.6 %
1 lbs 2.4 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 2 12.7 %
2.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 1.7 %
0.24 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 15.9 IBUs
0.36 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 13.3 IBUs
0.24 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 11.3 IBUs
0.24 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 9.5 IBUs
1.5 pkg San Diego Super Yeast (White Labs #WLP090) Yeast 8 -
Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color
Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.7 %
Bitterness: 50.0 IBUs
Est Color: 5.0 SRM
Any thoughts?
https://prezi.com/5d9dit6bdgvh/breaking-the-bud-code/
He said he'd do it once a month and enter the final result in a contest, but that was a year ago with no follow up. I've tried to reach him without success. I want to steal as many of his ideas as I can, but I have at least four problems: First, he says he degassed a sample of the brew and determined it had a FG of something like 1.0065! Two, he debates between mashing at 148 and 150F. Three he debates between neutral and hoppy water profiles. Four, his final grain bill gives an SRM of less than 3, when one of the givens from the brewer is an SRM of 5.0.
This FG and temp imply a very dry beer, and I do not think of this being dry at all. I also can't imagine ever getting as low as that with my setup. And I think the water calls for a NEIPA setup.
He has convinced me to bring my wheat percentage back up, and to use CTZ elsewhere, not just in the 60 minute boil. Here is the beginning of my next recipe. Right now, it stops at the end of the boil, but I plan to add whirlpool and dry hop stages as well. The issue for those is budget as much as anything else. I plan to throw in a LOT of hops.
Here is where I am at now:
7 lbs 11.9 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 85.6 %
1 lbs 2.4 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 2 12.7 %
2.5 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 1.7 %
0.24 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 15.9 IBUs
0.36 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 5 13.3 IBUs
0.24 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 11.3 IBUs
0.24 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 7 9.5 IBUs
1.5 pkg San Diego Super Yeast (White Labs #WLP090) Yeast 8 -
Gravity, Alcohol Content and Color
Est Original Gravity: 1.061 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.7 %
Bitterness: 50.0 IBUs
Est Color: 5.0 SRM
Any thoughts?
OP
OP
Quite a bit more input. Just a week after my June 8, 2017 post (above) I finally heard from Dwight Mulcahy. He sent me a PDF (attached) of the "final" version of his clone.
OP
OP
Here is his email that accompanied the PDF which includes a little more info on the water profile:
I did brew the beer 3 months in a row. It was decided by the club that the last version was better then the actual Breaking Bud. Personally I attribute that to the bottles of Breaking Bud we were getting for side by side tastings were not as fresh as the homebrewed clone.
Couple of pointers:
attached is the final recipe used...
here is the water profile that was used for a 12.5gal batch using RO water:
Good luck and let me know how it turns out...
dWiGhT
owner/brewer Clandestine Brewing
I did brew the beer 3 months in a row. It was decided by the club that the last version was better then the actual Breaking Bud. Personally I attribute that to the bottles of Breaking Bud we were getting for side by side tastings were not as fresh as the homebrewed clone.
Couple of pointers:
- use the freshest hops you can
- the hop stand was done at 190deg for 30mins (applying heat to keep it in the 190-180deg range. Do the hop stand with the pot covered
- CO2 purge equipment during any racking
- during fermentation and dry hopping shake the carboy/bucket daily
- start fermentation at 65deg and after a couple of days ramp it to 70deg
- you want this dry I was getting 1.007-1.009 typically... thereby the addition of sugar since I using fresh yeast every time
- build a 4L starter for the 12.5gal batch (VERY IMPORTANT)
- water is very important... build your own (see below)
attached is the final recipe used...
here is the water profile that was used for a 12.5gal batch using RO water:
Good luck and let me know how it turns out...
dWiGhT
owner/brewer Clandestine Brewing
OP
OP
I sent him some follow-up questions. Here are those questions and his replies:
no problem... the presentation is online here: http://www.wortsofwisdom.org/how-to-clone-a-commercial-beer-breaking-bud/
you will find that yeast will mutate and can get more aggressive. Since I was trying to clone the beer I wanted to make sure that there wasn't any changing variables (yeast in the case).
sure... the only thing is that CTZ is a fairly affordable and a great bittering hop. The CO2 hop shots can get pretty expensive.
the final gravity came from degasing a sample of Breaking Bud. I was seeing 1.008-1.009 in the stuff I was doing and it was pretty tasty. I'm guessing that Knee Deeps yeast gets reused and more aggressive achieving that low number without sugar. The amount that is used is fairly low just to get it down where it needs to be.
If you have every looked at the Pliny The Elder recipe you will notice that it also has sugar in it to achieve a drier profile.
I have also scaled this recipe up to 1.068 and 20% more IBU without the sugar and it gives a fairly close BooKoo clone. So as a base this recipe can be tweeked in the gravity and IBU to give you other interesting IPA beers.
IMHO... ": )
dWiGhT
no problem... the presentation is online here: http://www.wortsofwisdom.org/how-to-clone-a-commercial-beer-breaking-bud/
you will find that yeast will mutate and can get more aggressive. Since I was trying to clone the beer I wanted to make sure that there wasn't any changing variables (yeast in the case).
sure... the only thing is that CTZ is a fairly affordable and a great bittering hop. The CO2 hop shots can get pretty expensive.
the final gravity came from degasing a sample of Breaking Bud. I was seeing 1.008-1.009 in the stuff I was doing and it was pretty tasty. I'm guessing that Knee Deeps yeast gets reused and more aggressive achieving that low number without sugar. The amount that is used is fairly low just to get it down where it needs to be.
If you have every looked at the Pliny The Elder recipe you will notice that it also has sugar in it to achieve a drier profile.
I have also scaled this recipe up to 1.068 and 20% more IBU without the sugar and it gives a fairly close BooKoo clone. So as a base this recipe can be tweeked in the gravity and IBU to give you other interesting IPA beers.
IMHO... ": )
dWiGhT
OP
OP
I am thinking it may be time for me to revisit this beer. I will probably do a 3.5 to 4.0 gallon pressurized fermentation in a five gallon keg and use a HopShot in place of the CTZ if I can find one at my LHBS.
