Help fully utilizing Brew Stand

[juandela]

Hello all,

I've lurked here for years and brew solid beer because of much I've learned here. In the process I bought a keggle brew sculpture a few years back and used it to take my all grain brewing up a step.

I found the stand/keggles for sale locally. Here's what it is:

2 tier, 3 burners
HLT with valve out and sight glass
MT with in (sparge) valve at top and valve out
BK with valve out.
pump and chiller mounted to stand

The thing is I haven't even fully utilized the stand as I essentially parked the MT keggle (with false bottom) and have been using my cooler MT in the middle. I guess the only part I have really utilized is he ease of the stand, multiple burners and the pump. Because of this, I don't brew in the winter.

My questions are these....

*RIMS, HERMS.... where would you take this system and how would you do it.
*Is it worth the added cost to circulate the wort? will it really enable me to brew year round?
*It looks like RIMS tubes (or RIMS rocket) with Johnson controller are getting cheaper to buy as a package deal. HERMS simple enough too, I guess, other than having to convert my HLT to a HERMS vessell after pumping into the MT.

Thanks in advance for your help. One thing I've learned is that if HBT doesn't have the answer, it doesn't exist. You guys are amazing in your resourcefulness.

 

[juandela]

Okay... I see now I was asking you guys to teach me how to fish and I was standing there with a stapler.

A few days later and I'm infinitely more informed than I was when I originally posted this. Hopefully I can entice some discourse

I was ready to buy a RIMS tube (ebay/amazon) and just simply hook up a Johnson controller to it. In the last couple of days of reading I've learned that the Johnson controller has too much lag to it. That results in guys building mega-bling panels out of military shell boxes or grey home depot service boxes.

For me, I'm the guy who can change LCDs in iphones, ipads, laptops.... fix household dryer (motor once, control board once).... etc, but something about the elec/water thing scares me here. I'm willing to pay extra to buy pre-fab.

I guess my remaining questions are this:

1) HERMS... Everything I see is dedicated vessel. Is anyone converting (on the fly) an existing vessel (HLT/BK) to serve the HERMS function?

2) RIMS... seems easy enough. Why is it, though, everyone seems to have the temp probe in the tube? Seems like you'd want it in the MT. You wanna know the temp of the liquid floating the grain, right? Not the liquid already pulled out.

3) Controller... so the TJohnson controller is out. Without going straight to a NASA launch panel (multi switches, buttons, lights....) is there a simple/relatively inexpensive plug-n-play solution?

I think you see what I'm getting at. I'm still okay manually controlling my three burners and my pump. I'd just like automation at the mash temp control function. That leads me to my bonus round question.....

4) there has to be a way to incorporate an old laptop or ipad in this single step of automation. I could imagine it still involves a small amount of build (at least housing a relay and outlet). Does this exist yet?

 

[Brian77095]

I am a few steps behind you so I can't answer all your questions. I am currently using a igloo cooler now as well.

My plan is to do a modified RIMS and maybe someday automate.

Before I do that I want to insulate my keggle mash tun so I can direct fire it. I feel like if I direct fire I can manually keep the temp were I want it.

If you want to jump into automation you could use a ST-1000 to control the temp and connect it to a water heater controller.

Before I start trying RIMS or HERMS I want to make this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=154652


http://www.winning-homebrew.com/RIMS-HERMS.html

I think your next steps are to start using your keggle mt and see what you need to improve it. If you are not going to insulate it what is the next best option and does that option have to be automated?

Hope that helps!

 

[juandela]

I hadn't thought about insulating. I have a unique situation where my SW Michigan house is a walk-out front so the 2-stall garage is under the living room. I brew at the front of the garage (wheeled out from the back of the garage) so I'm outdoors enough to not worry about the propane fumes but protected enough that only the few coldest winter months give me concern.

The insulation proposition is an interesting one but I honestly thin HERMS/RIMS is the way for me to go. It seems simple enough to go the RIMS route to deal with minor temp fluctuations. I've just got some missing pieces I need to learn about.... namely, is anyone converting an integral vessel into the HERMS tank on the fly and what controller is the route to go if the basic Johnson isn't responsive enough for RIMS.

Great stuff... thanks for replying

 

[blizz81]

Yeah...I mean, I guess I would say with 3 burners and a pump, you already have a route to circulate wort / hold or raise temp / brew all year round.


If you are set on a different method for maintaining temp / better automation, I always thought that most people that went HERMS used their HLT. RIMS, I would say you would want a PID (that can cycle on/off duty cycles quickly), something like an Auber. I believe mine was around $40 (a 2352 I think?).

 

[blizz81]

Also for RIMS, I think if you search around you'll see people have experimented with placement of the temp probe. Problem I can see with having it in the mash tun is it could be reading low and turning the heating element on, but the temp of what's in the tube could be higher / different. I think with good flow rate, it's not a big deal either way. I have my probe in the end of my tube and there's about a 0.5* offset between what I set my PID at and what my mash temp stabilizes at.


It's not too bad to rig up a simple control box with a PID and an SSR. You can find the diagrams here and if you know how to solder wiring, you can get by. My control box is pretty simple - 3 switches (main, pump, heater), an SSR, and the PID. Bought a dual-female outlet from the hardware store, separated those via the instructions in the outlet. Hardest part for me was sourcing a male plug on the rear, but I was looking locally, easy over the web. I looked prefab at the time (2 years ago) and didn't really find anything as simple as I wanted. Some pics of my project and wiring diagram: https://goo.gl/photos/chi8Mr7DYfmZZuRN7

 

[juandela]

oh wow, you are apparently the dude I need to talk to.

I see the controller for sale.... cheap enough. does it have to be in an enclosure of some sort (different from the Johnson)?

Assuming your stand is only automated for RIMS, can you tell me more?

How about your tube, what did you use?

and ultimatley, is it truly set-it-and-forget-it as in you dial in the mash temp and sit down for 60 minutes?

 

[blizz81]

I would advise mounting the SSR and the PID in some sort of an enclosure, yeah. I grabbed the biggest plastic box I could find at Home Depot. I think it was 8"x8", which I wish I would have ordered one slightly larger from somewhere else, as it was kind of a tight fit with the gauge of wiring I used (12? Probably overkill). I think an appropriate Auber SSR was like $20-25. Actually, here is a thread with some parts detail.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=442698

Over time I switched away from using the weldless inlet + loc-line and just run a long length of silicone tubing back in through the top. This is b/c I had some flow control issues and along with my false bottom (it more or less just holds the grain bed away from my drain now), started using a Brew In A Bag bag. No issues after that, but as the bag is clipped on at the top of the keg, I couldn't run the loc-line back into the bag. Has worked fine with just the silicone hose. Some of the other hardware is obviously for my bottom drain as well...and I never got the Norther Brewer GFCI shockbuster deal, I just plug into a GFCI outlet in my kitchen.

My stand is just RIMS only, yeah. I still drain into a kettle and take that out in the garage to boil. But if you wanted to go the RIMS route, you would just be pumping into your kettle I'm sure. Can just do it from the valve out on the bottom as opposed to where I'm doing bottom drain.

Once I got away from flow control issues, it has been set-and-forget. I've thrown a lot at the BIAB bag and haven't had any issues. Some people wire their heater up to a flow meter so it shuts off if flow is interrupted. Good idea but more complexity. I'm always in the kitchen hanging out so I can tell if the pump starts having trouble...but again, many brews with the BIAB bag and no further issues.

 

[jrcrilly]

You already have a RIMS heat source if you switch to a SS MLT and use the center burner (RIMS can use either direct heat or an external heated chamber). If you want to add HERMS instead, you just need to add a HEX coil inside the HLT. Stainlessbrewing.com sells very nice preformed SS coils for a fair price. If you want either burner to be temperature-controlled (a logical next step) the easiest and cheapest way is to change to a low pressure orifice and regulator and add a Honeywell furnace valve and pilot. You can then control the valve with a Johnson or similar controller (the ITC-308 at $35 is a good candidate) or any of the inexpensive PID modules with "relay" output. No relay or SSR is required for this.