Help designing basement to kitchen taps

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jmacker

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I have what seems to me to be the ideal spot for 2-3 taps in my kitchen. Directly below in the basement is a spot for a keezer.
I have seen conflicting information about the best way to go about getting the beer from the basement to the kitchen. Currently I walk down the steps with an empty glass and come up with a full one. It works ok but I think I can do better.

There is about 12' of rise from the middle of the keg to where I imagine the taps would be. Total line length would need to be about 15' with a couple slight turns. I hope for 3 beer lines, one cold water line and a return water line.

Are there any solid reasons NOT to do this? Can anyone offer tips to look out for? Advice for how to do the cooling lines. I am quite handy so I am confident I can do it - I'm just not sure I ought to.

BTW I have the blessing of SWMBO.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
In a 12' rise you'll loose about 5psi at the tap (1psi per 2.31'), so as long as your serving pressure exceeds that it should not be a problem. I would think getting your line cooling system fine tuned would be the trickiest part of the build, but certainly possible (plenty of threads here to get you started).
:mug:
Congrats on getting the go-a-head from SWMBO!
 
Thanks for the input 501. I was playing around with some equations I came across to figure some of this out. I thought I was getting close until I found other threads that said not to use 1/4" lines. Then I worried about the pressure needing to be too high and over carbing the keg as a result.

I have a vague idea about the cooling lines. I figured a closed-loop water line routed through a length of copper in the keezer then back to a pump. I wonder if the pump should be plugged into the same temp controller that the keezer is plugged into. I am also wondering about placement of the probe. I suppose it needs to be up near the taps.

I guess I'll kick it around a little and figure something out.
 
I've never tried running anything like this so I can only theorize, but it would seem that if you typically keep your ale kegs at say 12psi, the tap in the kitchen would be serving at somewhere around 7psi which is plenty. There is bound to be some loss due to line restriction as well but not sure what those figures would be. Maybe that has something to do with the suggestion not to use 1/4" line. What was the suggested size for a long run? You could always do a dry run up the stairwell before committing to the install. Would just cost 15' of line that your hoping to use anyway.
Sounds like a plan for the cooling, and yes I would try to get a probe as close to your tap as possible (at least as far as you can away from the cooling source).
 
I was playing around with some equations I came across to figure some of this out. I thought I was getting close until I found other threads that said not to use 1/4" lines. Then I worried about the pressure needing to be too high and over carbing the keg as a result.

Many of the similar builds I've seen use 1/4" beer line without issue. If the rise and length of run is significant enough, using 3/16" line would result in a painfully slow pour. The only options to get around this are larger diameter beer lines, or pushing the beer with a CO2/nitrogen blend.

FWIW those equations you found are likely garbage. Most of the ones I've seen make assumptions that ignore the basic laws of fluid dynamics, and often result in problems for homebrewers. They will all give you a line length that results in a flow rate of ~1gal/min, which depending on your serving temp and carb level might be too fast. There is a spreadsheet that can accurately calculate line length based on an input of your desired flow rate (in terms of the time it takes to pour a pint). For moderate carb levels and temps under 40°, I'd go no faster than a 10 sec pint fill time. For warmer temps I'd go for 12 sec or longer.

Inputting a 15' rise and 12 psi serving pressure, using 3/16" ID line would result in a ~20 sec pint fill time, which is pretty slow. Using 1/4" line you'd need to run 19 feet of it for a 10 sec pint fill time.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApGb-vIKLq7FdGtzN3BrY2xZSldORzQ2bHVVX0hzaEE#gid=0
 
Was reading this article http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/ and thought of your project. Looks like 1/4" Polyethylene could do the trick but may still be a little shy. They don't list the resistance for 5/16" Polyethylene but would surly decrease the line resistance to make a 12' rise and 15'+ line length. If you go with the 5/16" poly, you may actually need to add a short 3/16" whip to reduce the pressure a bit.
 
jmacker,

Putting the lengths and calculations aside....math is hard :confused:

Take a look at this thread, it's the same thing your looking to do. He even talks about his DIY trunk line. He uses a pond pump in glycol in the freezer to chill his lines which would be much more efficient than the pump running from the same place as the kegs. Good luck and I'll be following this build.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-5-tap-setup-basment-kitchen-438714/
 
Was reading this article http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/ and thought of your project. Looks like 1/4" Polyethylene could do the trick but may still be a little shy. They don't list the resistance for 5/16" Polyethylene but would surly decrease the line resistance to make a 12' rise and 15'+ line length. If you go with the 5/16" poly, you may actually need to add a short 3/16" whip to reduce the pressure a bit.

That article is rather misleading and makes a lot of dangerous assumptions IMO. Articles like that are responsible for a lot of the "help, my keg is pouring all foam" threads around here.
 
That article is rather misleading and makes a lot of dangerous assumptions IMO. Articles like that are responsible for a lot of the "help, my keg is pouring all foam" threads around here.

I would agree to a point that the methodology and formulas suggested are rudimentary. Items such as the friction lose (resistance) of 1/4 vinyl tubing is a fixed value of .85. I'm quite sure the resistance of different brands will vary (possibly greatly?). Also, the pressure loss for 12" of water column is .433 psi, not .50 psi as indicated. All in all however, it appears this is a fairly simple way to get pretty darn close to your target even if the dead center wasn't hit. Am I missing something more catastrophic?
 
I have basement kegs and taps in my dining room. I used 1/4 barrier tubing with a 25 ft run, 12 ft rise. Servering pressure is 10-12 psi at 4 c. I cool with glycol. I use a spare kegerator to cool the glycol. I use an old keg to house it. It only cools to 10 c because of the thermal gain and the pump heat(submersible). Happy to share anything else you need or send pics, I learned a lot running it.

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501irishred said:
I would agree to a point that the methodology and formulas suggested are rudimentary. Items such as the friction lose (resistance) of 1/4 vinyl tubing is a fixed value of .85. I'm quite sure the resistance of different brands will vary (possibly greatly?). Also, the pressure loss for 12" of water column is .433 psi, not .50 psi as indicated. All in all however, it appears this is a fairly simple way to get pretty darn close to your target even if the dead center wasn't hit. Am I missing something more catastrophic?

The catastrophic thing you're missing is that line resistance is not a "fixed value" for a given size/type of line, it's dependent on the flow rate. The 0.85 psi/ft is actually pretty accurate for all brands of 1/4" ID vinyl, but only at a flow rate of 1 gal/min. All of the resistance figures in that article are only valid for a flow rate of 1gal/min. This is the flow rate targeted for commercial systems because it's the fastest you can pour a beer stored at 34-38F and carbed to ~2.7 vol without excessive foaming (which is the set of conditions for most commercial systems). The warmer the beer is (or the more highly carbed), the slower and gentler the pour needs to be to prevent excessive foaming. Homebrewers trying to use those figures and simplified equations for beer served at 40F and carbed to only 2.5 vol often find that the 4-5' of 3/16" line those equations tell them is "ideal" isn't nearly long enough, and that they actually need closer to double that length.

The other thing that bothers me about articles like that is that they imply there's some magic length, and anything else will cause serious problems. The only side effect of longer lines is a slightly slower pour. And I do mean slight. Since line resistance decreases as the flow rate decreases, doubling the line length typically only tacks on a couple extra seconds to the time it takes to pour a pint. For a bar this might be important, but I'd wager that a more flexible system capable of pouring beer at a wide range of temperatures and carb levels is a whole lot more important for most homebrewers than shaving 2 seconds off of the pint pour time.

Take milldoggy's post above. The equation and resistance figures in the article you linked suggest that he'd need less than 6' of line to get a good pour (which is physically impossible with a 12' rise), and yet he's running 25' successfully. If you believe the simplified equation in the article, beer shouldn't even be flowing out for him.
 
Items such as the friction lose (resistance) of 1/4 vinyl tubing is a fixed value of .85.

Juan did a great job explaining why this is an incorrect statement, but just to expand a bit further:

Fluid resistance / drag is usually a function of the velocity squared. So not only is it dependent on your velocity, it's very dependent on your velocity. This is why the resistance is much higher when your beer is flowing quickly, and as your flow rate slows down, the pressure drop decreases as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)

A good example of this is the air resistance when driving your car: when you're cruising at 25 MPH, the air resistance is almost negligible, but when you're at a highway speed of 70 MPH a large percentage of the engine's power is just going towards fighting that air resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_economy_in_automobiles#Physics

This is why your car gets such better gas mileage if you keep the speed down on the highway. The same applies to beer, as the velocity drops the resistance drops as well. So the numbers are far from fixed. This isn't even including effects from temperature, density, etc. On a cold day, when the air is denser, the wind resistance on your car is significantly higher. Again, all of these things translate to beer as well.

The articles do a very good job of explaining the reasoning behind the line length calculators, they just neglect to mention that the magic "PSI/foot" number is only relevant for a very specific flow rate, temperature, and carb level.
 
Thanks Juan and Zach - I'm always willing to learn, and this is certainly an eye opener. I still cant believe the information was wrong or misleading however, after all it is post on the internet! :)
 
I really appreciate the input. I think you guys get where my confusion was coming from. This is exactly the help I was hoping for.
I'll spend some time checking out the thread referenced above and hopefully be able to make some progress on this after checking a few other items off the honey-do list.
Thanks everyone!
 
If you do not have enough resistance and flow is to fast, you can always get restrictor taps or install restrictor line. If flow isnto slow, they only cure is crank up psi or pumps. To high psi results in over carbed beers
 
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