Help choosing the correct type and amount of Rhizomes

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scorchingice

scorchingice

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Location
Monticello Indiana, USA
Hello everyone. My name is Brian and I live in the Lafayette Indiana area (about 2 hours South of Chicago Illinois.

About me: I have been homebrewing for about a year. I started out making the normal extract ingredient kits purchased from Homebrewers Outpost. After 4 months or so I moved to the partial mash kits. I have not purchased the equipment for all grain so I have not tried those. I am certain that eventually I will want to try my hand at buying bulk ingredients and making my own creative beers.

My favorite style of beers are IPA, Nut Brown Ale, Honey Brown Lager, and sometimes a Cream Stout or Oatmeal Stout.

My living arrangements are that I live on a 1 acre lot near a lake with a lot of room to grow. We have a garden currently and I am wanting to start growing my own hops. I want to get started now as I know it takes about 3 seasons before you can use the hops for brewing. My plans are to build wooden poles with strings coming down to the ground for the plants to grow on. Similar to this image.
hopfen1an2.jpg


The last IPA kit I used had Centennial Hops and U.K. Northern Brewer (Northdown) (Site said this was supposed to be Magnum). From what I have read, Centennial and Horizon would be 2 that would fit this role well.

My question is, going by my beer style interest, What rhizomes would be good ones to start growing? How many of each rhizome will I need to get?

Should I try Centennial, Horizon, and a few others all at once? Should I stick to just the 2 types?

I will be purchasing the Rhizomes from www.midwestsupplies.com

Again this is my first time starting out so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I would like to go ahead and pre-order the Rhizomes now.
 
I highly suggest purchasing from freshops.com. I order from them anytime I add new hops to my garden and I've never had any problems.

As for what to grow...you're in about the same growing climate as I am. Cascades do very well (I got 4oz's out of my first year and I get around 2lbs a year from one plant now). Nugget is another good grower. Either of those would work for you. I've had some troubles getting centennials to grow, but I'm no "green thumb" so that could be the issue.

As far as how many...that's all up to you. Keep in mind you'll have to water them DAILY, and sometimes twice daily on hot days. Unless you have a lot of homebrewing friends, you won't ever be able to use most of your hops if you're buying multiple plants.

I brew every other weekend. I have 6 plants this year (downgraded from 10). When I had 10, I was trying to give away hops for months. There was no way I could go through the amount of hops I was growing.
 
1) have poles and everything ready to go to have in by the end of april
2) order the jumbos from freshops, otherwise get 2 of those rhizomes per mound from NB or midwest

Do this and you should have a healthy harvest in your second year. Just make sure you have different varieties separated enough so they don't tangle and make them indistinguishable.

I have 14 mounds of 10 different varieties. I have lab access for testing, so I can determine AA% and use for bittering, otherwise they are best used for aroma (or a unique brew if you don't mind the "excitement" of unknown AA%)
 
Randar said:
I have lab access for testing, so I can determine AA% and use for bittering, otherwise they are best used for aroma (or a unique brew if you don't mind the "excitement" of unknown AA%)
Click to expand...

Any links for the process needed to determine the AA% ?

You stated having a lab so I assume chemistry is needed ?
 
BSBrewer said:
Does it really take 3 years before you produce ANY or are you talking before large yields? I could have sworn someone got 3/4# per plant in his 1st year somewhere else on the forums...
Click to expand...

Quote taken directly from one of the guides I have been using for information.

Why aren’t my hops producing any cones?

Most plants will not produce anything the first year. However, you may get lucky like I did, and have a few cones the first year.
Perennials take at least 3 years to get established. The second year, you will see more bine growth, and a lot more leaves. The third year after planting is when you should see a full crop of cones. When your hop shoots come up out of the ground, you will want to trim them back to the strongest 2 or 3 leaders. Don’t let them just grow wild, as they will produce mainly stems and leaves, and not cones, which is the whole point of growing hops in the first place. You will need to fertilize the plants every year with the fertilizer of your choice. I use compost and composted cow manure myself.
Click to expand...

Taken from this guide
http://www.ratebeer.com/Story.asp?StoryID=186

Going by this, the first 2 years will not be productive for cones. There will be some I am sure but I am planning on the third year being the first "Quality" year.

I could be wrong, I am just going by the information I have read from the internet guides.
 
BSBrewer said:
Does it really take 3 years before you produce ANY or are you talking before large yields? I could have sworn someone got 3/4# per plant in his 1st year somewhere else on the forums...
Click to expand...

If you use those flimsy-arse tiny twigs they send you from any of the beer supply houses, 3 years might be right, depending on growing conditions. Decent 2nd year production is very common though unless you live in a very short growing season locale. Use the jumbos from freshops and 2nd year will be pretty darn good.


Don't try to transplant them (don't start them inside) either. Get out there AS SOON as the ground is able to be worked (plant them the day you get them in the mail if possible).

And you definitely should add fert and soil amendments every year. Fert during the growing season too.
 
New question

I believe I am going to build single trellis's for each type of hops I grow and space them out about 6 to 8 feet away from one another. I am going to design the trellis like the following image (with 4 lines - one on each side of the 4 x 4 lumber)

I am not the best artist but this should give you the right idea of the trellis I plan to build.

singletrellis.png


Questions are

#1 is 4x4x12 burying it 3 feet (Leaving 9 feet in the air enough or do I need to get taller lumber? The taller it is the harder it will be to harvest I am sure.

#2 Where exactly would I plant the Rhizomes ?

Just one at the post?

One at each point where the string meets the ground?

One at the post and one at each point where the string hits the ground ?
 
9 ft vertical where you live is not enough. Those things are going to need a bare minimum of 12 feet. Grab 16' 4x4's and bury 3 ft.

You could go 6 or 8 stringers per pole that way, On a single mound I run 2 stringers up to a cross-wire in a "V" shape (they also do this in commercial hopyards). In your design you could space the base strings by about 1-2' on either side of the mound and do the same, effectively making 4 mounds into 8 stringers. It's just a yield/spacing issue.

A lot of people fashion pulleys or ways to let down the hops. With my 13' lines I have a 10 or 12' stepladder (I also use this for my fruit trees) that lets me reach it ok.
 
My best suggestion is to start with 1 or 2 plants to get a feel for how much work it's going to be to keep them alive and pest free. Then add to that as you see fit.

I went gusto with 13 plants and it's crazy work through the year in my area.
 
I contructed a trellis 16' tall by securing the uprights to the corner posts of my chainlink fence. I nailed a cross bar across the top between the posts.
16' is scary tall for in-town. I might cut it down a couple feet.
How much weight do the plants exert on the cable? I want to make sure it will support the bines of 3 plants evenly spaced.
 
northernlad said:
I contructed a trellis 16' tall by securing the uprights to the corner posts of my chainlink fence. I nailed a cross bar across the top between the posts.
16' is scary tall for in-town. I might cut it down a couple feet.
How much weight do the plants exert on the cable? I want to make sure it will support the bines of 3 plants evenly spaced.
Click to expand...

weight isn't the issue with the wire ropes, it's the lateral forces on your posts dues to wind/rain and such as they blow on your bines.

I used 3/8" galvanized wire rope which is enough to hoist aircrafts! LOL!
 
GilaMinumBeer said:
My best suggestion is to start with 1 or 2 plants to get a feel for how much work it's going to be to keep them alive and pest free. Then add to that as you see fit.

I went gusto with 13 plants and it's crazy work through the year in my area.
Click to expand...


Good suggestion. Not as much work up north, but with 14 plants, the harvest and drying is a PITA. You have to rethink drying methods when talking about this kind of scale vs a couple of plants.
 
Ok, Ill start small (3 types of Hops) one pole will be Centennial, one pole will be a multi purpose (Probably nugget or cascade) and the last pole will be either Magnum or Horizon.

But the final question remains.

Where exactly would I plant the Rhizomes ?

Just one at the post?

One at each point where the string meets the ground?

One at the post and one at each point where the string hits the ground ?


Do I want the hops growing up the Center Lumber post or just on the lines?
 
"Hello everyone. My name is Brian and I live in the Lafayette Indiana area (about 2 hours North of Chicago Illinois."

ot and just for the op's reference, I do believe you meant about 2 hours SOUTH of Chicago?
 
northernlad said:
Well the good news is they regret the inconvenience living in Washington causes me...
Click to expand...

I can't remember what the reasoning behing not shipping to those areas was. Hops carry their own types of disease with them, so I suppose planting them in certain areas may cause problems.

scorchingice said:
Ok, Ill start small (3 types of Hops) one pole will be Centennial, one pole will be a multi purpose (Probably nugget or cascade) and the last pole will be either Magnum or Horizon.

But the final question remains.

Where exactly would I plant the Rhizomes ?

Just one at the post?

One at each point where the string meets the ground?

One at the post and one at each point where the string hits the ground ?


Do I want the hops growing up the Center Lumber post or just on the lines?
Click to expand...

Plant the rhizomes near your stringers so they climb the ropes and not the pole. I would definately suggest a trellis at LEAST 15' high. I screwed up my first year and only built a 12' trellis thinking it'd be fine. The bines ended up climing onto the roof of my garage. Some of them that didn't make it to the garage snapped under their own weight and I lost the potential to grow hops above that point. Since all your hops will grow above the 3-4' off the ground level, it was sort of a bummer.

I highly disagree with any book or website that states you won't get growth for the first two to three seasons. As I said, my first year cascades were putting off about 4oz of usable hops a piece. It's not a ton, but it was worth brewing with. I've had a few first years not produce much, but it really depends on what you're trying to grow. If you're trying to grow noble hops in the U.S., then you probably won't get anything for a few years.

On a side note: Because of where you live, I would plan ahead of time for the japanese beetle invasions. They will massacre your hops if you don't plan accordingly with some sort of food safe pesticide.
 
dobeluvr said:
"Hello everyone. My name is Brian and I live in the Lafayette Indiana area (about 2 hours North of Chicago Illinois."

ot and just for the op's reference, I do believe you meant about 2 hours SOUTH of Chicago?
Click to expand...

Oops. yes I Was thinking Chicago is 2 Hours North. Worded it wrong. Ill go and change that
 
Randar said:
I have lab access for testing, so I can determine AA% and use for bittering, otherwise they are best used for aroma (or a unique brew if you don't mind the "excitement" of unknown AA%)
Click to expand...

Usually you can get a good estimate of what they'll be AA%wise by talking to whatever company you ordered from. It'd be nice to know exactly for repeatabilty, but IMHO, no homebrew using homegrown hops is repeatable unless they're hops from the same growing season. Don't hops usually take in qualities from the soil and enviornment around them? Or is this only when being seeded by male plants?

scorchingice said:
Any links for the process needed to determine the AA% ?

You stated having a lab so I assume chemistry is needed ?
Click to expand...

The price of sending them to a lab is quite expessive and not really worth it unless you brew a ton. In order to do it yourself, I'd imagine you'd have to own some fairly pricey equipment.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
On a side note: Because of where you live, I would plan ahead of time for the japanese beetle invasions. They will massacre your hops if you don't plan accordingly with some sort of food safe pesticide.
Click to expand...

OMG I am so glad you said that. Those dang beetles are so bad they get inside the house at the end of fall when they are trying to hibernate. Those are the ones that look like ladybugs but are brown right ?

*NOTE* I do not think the beetles we get are the ones you said. At least I have not noticed the ones you said. We get these, and at the end of fall, that is what the side of the house looks like.

THESE are the ones we get

ladybeetles.jpg





The beetles you said Look like this right?
(If so I haven't noticed these in any noticeable amount.)

japanesebeetle.png


What can I do to prevent them from messing with the hops ? Any suggestions on what to use on the plants ?

Do they have any type of Mesh coating that can go around the trellis that will still let enough sunlight get in ? Would not look very nice but I sure would hate to lose the harvest over those dang bugs.

Another Question:

The lines on the Tressil, would I be better off using a metal one that was uncoated, or one that is coated with plastic like the bicycle lock coil chains (Except straight not coiled) ? I assume coated but I better ask just in case the vinyl coating will bother the plants.

Coated Example
http://www.cheappetproducts.net/20FT_CABLE_TIEOUT_1750LB_-_SILVER-P61271.html
DFP84720.jpg


Non Coated Example
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000AXDTL/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
41jY2yks-3L._SL500_AA280_.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Honestly, I've never liked using metal lines. I always use a really thick hemp line. If you're set on using metal, then I'd probably go with the non-coated just because I'm not sure if the vines would be able to climb the coated wire.

As for beetles...Japanese beetles are the second picture. The first picture you posted is ladybugs. Those are actually beneficial to your garden so I wouldn't worry much about them. Yes, they're annoying, but they won't hurt your hops. The ladybug lookalike you're talking about is called a Mexican Bean Beetle. It has no white on the area around it's head, like the ladybug. Also, ladybugs have varying spots. Mexican bean beetles all have 16 spots.

If you haven't noticed many Japanese beetles in your area, you're lucky. You probably don't have to worry about it much. I'll have to dig out my organic pesticides to see what the name of mine is.
 
Just an FYI on what I have in my system.

(3) 4x4x16 foot treated (non Arsenic) posts (3 foot embeded in a 24"x36" footing set on 25 foot centers. 3/16 Stainless steel spiral wound cable. Eye bolts on 1 end and wire vise clamps on the other for re-tensioning.

I affixed stainless S hooks with cable clamps from which I hang 3/8" Sisal rope using stainless steel rings. At the bottom I have 3/8" rebar bent to form a hook and driven into the soil to stabilize the bottom of the drop lines. Everything but the Sisal is re-usable and the Sisal goes into compost with what is left of the bines.
 
All right, I think I got the planning for this decided :ban:

I will use the following items :

(3) 4" x 4" x 16' pieces of treated lumber (non Arsenic)

*NOTE* I called Lowes and they said the lumber they have is ACQ-D treated lumber. According to THIS GUIDE I found online, this is non arsenic. The only type of treated lumber that is arsenic is CCA treated lumber. Can anyone confirm this for me please? Does that sound like the right lumber to use?

(3) Tie Down Engineering Storage Shed High-Wind Load Kit

(15) Stanley-National Hardware Lag Screw Eye

(2) Bundles of Hop Twine (Coir Yarn)

(4) Centennial Jumbo Rhizomes

(4) Magnum Jumbo Rhizomes

(4) Nugget Jumbo Rhizomes



I will dig 3' holes in the ground and place each pole into a hole securing it with packed dirt. This will leave 13' of pole extending up into the air.
Each pole will have 4 steel cables secured to a Lag screw eye that has been screwed into the center of each side of each post.
I will then secure each steel cable line into the ground using the corkscrew shape posts. Then in between each of the 4 cable lines I will run a length of Hop Twine up to the top of each post where I will have an additional Lag Screw Eye secured into the center of the post. I will run each hop twine line through this eye and secure it.

I will plant 1 Jumbo Rhizome at the base of each of the hop twine strings.


Any thoughts on this plan ? Ideas or changes to make to the Trellis ?


Thank you once again. I cannot wait to become a successful hop grower...
:mug:
 
Sounds good. And yes, CCA was outlawed a few years ago so it's should actually be difficult to find anything treated with it unless it's old stock.
 
I'm not sure how well 3' of packed soil will support your 12' trellis. You might want to concider filling the hole 2/3 of the way up with concrete and dirt for the rest.
 
Whoops. Missed that about the poles supports. Ayup. Without a concrete base for an anchor, the general rule is one third of post length gets embedded. 16/3 = 5.3~

Dig a 2x3 foot hole and fill it with post crete. It's like 3 to 5 dollars a bag and you just dump it in and add water. 24 hours to set.
 
Suthrncomfrt1884 said:
I'm not sure how well 3' of packed soil will support your 12' trellis. You might want to concider filling the hole 2/3 of the way up with concrete and dirt for the rest.
Click to expand...

Ok, I was thinking that the 4 tightly secured steel cables secured to the ground would anchor the post and prevent it from moving. Concrete wouldn't be a problem to add to each of the 3 posts.

Thanks for the tip.

If I use the concrete, will I still need the 4 steel cables on each post ?
 
Not sure about Monticello, IN, but around here we have hard-pack clay just 6" down in most places. I rented a big-ass auger post-hole digger (2-person) and we could only get about a little over 40" down. The clay is so hard and stable, IMO it is at least as good as concrete once it settles. I had to go back and adjust the 6x6x16 poles a bit to keep them plumb the first year but once it is packed and stable, it ain't going anywhere. But soil conditions vary and concrete can trap moisture and speed rot, so also keep that in mind. I avoid using it unless I truly need it.
 
scorchingice said:
Ok, I was thinking that the 4 tightly secured steel cables secured to the ground would anchor the post and prevent it from moving. Concrete wouldn't be a problem to add to each of the 3 posts.

Thanks for the tip.

If I use the concrete, will I still need the 4 steel cables on each post ?
Click to expand...

Definitely not needed if you are going to string it up tensioned by the 4 wires attached to earth anchors. That will keep it plumb and stable. In that case 3' deep will be plenty, especially if you have any of the clay I have around here once you go down a little. Just be sure you put adjusters in the lines so you can tweak them as things settle.
 
Also, if you have beans (bush or pole), fruit trees, birch trees, or roses, the japanese beetles would already be seen on any of these. They will prefer those crops to hops without question.
 

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