Help! 2nd Batch Infected!

[gbuttar]

*warning, long post ahead*
Hello

I am new to brewing and to this forum, and recently finished my second batch, a Honey Basil Ale (http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/507) – an extract with steeped grains. I followed the recipe exactly. My first batch, a very simple extract pale ale went very smoothly (no off flavors). I am fairly certain however that this bath has some sort of infection

I first noticed it in my secondary just before bottling – an almost invisible thin film. Smelled and tasted great so I racked from under it anyway and bottled it – most of the film stuck to the sides of the glass carboy I was racking out of. I came very close to my calculated OG and FG. After about a few days in bottles, the film reappeared (translucent frosty film, around neck of bottle about ¼” up past the liquid). Now, after almost 3 weeks, the film has disappeared (dropped out or got washed out when I moved the bottles), but the sour taste (acidic, not really vinegary) had gotten much more prominent (pretty much undrinkable, couldn’t finish a whole bottle). The last one I opened also gushed – I moved the bottles to the bath tub as a precaution (fear of bottle bombs).


I followed the recipe exactly, and fermented 2 weeks my primary (plastic ale pale) and 2 weeks in my secondary (glass carboy) before bottling, with tap water filled airlocks in place. All my equipment is new except my fermenters (from a friend, both in excellent shape, no serious scratches on the plastic). I did a partial boil which I topped off in the primary, all water being store bought spring water.

I’m guessing I should dump these, because they’re only getting worse, and now pose a potential hazard. I’m posting because I’m worried that I may have a problem other than basic sanitation, because I think I go way overboard already.

I’ve been using regular dish soap and iodophor, gentle cleaning with a soft sponge and complete filling/submerging in iodophor solution for sanitizing (fresh batch each time). My grains were milled at my LHBS, and I do not siphon by mouth (I prime it with iodophor solution).

There were only a few things that concerned me with regards to possible infection sources. The turkey baster and strainer I used for sampling/straining wort were previously used in the kitchen for their respective originally intended purposes, although I cleaned and sanitized both before use). I also condensation on my kitchen fume hood during the boil dripping back into my wort, although I would think that any nasties that might have been picked up would be killed upon falling back into the boil.

My plan:
-replacing all cheap plastics
-no secondary going forward (just glass primary)
-switching to oxiclean and starsan, and keeping a starsan spray bottle
-bleach bombing (bleach-water-vinegar carefully following mixing instructions) everything that I’m not throwing away
-purchasing a wine thief and autosiphon (versus used turkey baster and racking cane)
-using a grain bag and funnel to filter instead of spaghetti strainer
-filling airlocks with starsan going forward
-getting desk fan to help ventilate my stove area

Do you guys think that I may have an issue other than basic sanitation? With how thorough I think I’ve been, I’m just afraid of buying all new plastics just infect them again with a new bad batch. Should I be worried about a house bug/airborne contamination? I’m fairly certain that I was as careful as I could be regarding contact contamination, although any suggestions regarding things I may have overlooked as a beginner, or steps I could add to my action plan, would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for helping out a nervous noobie, sorry for the seemingly endless post!

-Gus

 

[H-ost]

I would definitely be putting either alcohol or starsan in the airlock for fear of anything accidentally getting in will have to pass through and be sanitized.
You didn't mention sanitizing the fermenters but im guessing you did.
I dont use plastic except for my bottling bucket but from what i hear any scratches in plastic can harbor bacteria that may be very difficult to get out so it might be good to replace those.
You say your hood over your stove allows things to drip back in, i can imagine this being an issue only if you are cooling the wort underneath it, If the wort is at boiling temperatures then anything that falls in will be killed but after flameout i would get the pot away from there asap or cool with the lid on which takes longer.

 

[SouthernCross]

As far as the plastic fermenters, they're all I've ever used, and absolutely never had a problem. But. I use and store them carefully, and empty. Never stack em or anything. I also rotate them from brewing to garage storage every few months. For the price, why not? I use vodka in airlocks.

I love star-san, and both dunk/soak things before brew and spray with a new batch in a spray bottle during boil and such.

Was this film in *every* bottle? And when did it appear in secondary.

 

[poislb]

Just some of the things i do, dont use soap...just clean in star san after use, hang dry hoses and plastics. Clean carboy when needed (after ferm) with oxy clean free, then rinse very well, then star san again and leave it sit. I have also used one step with great results as well, knock on wood...never had an infection. Just make sure you let your equipment being used to set 2 min in sanitizer before use....

 

[gbuttar]

first of all thank you all for your quick replies, I love this forum

Regarding the fume hood: I move my pot well away from the stove/fume hood and into my sink for an ice bath for cooling, so I'm guessing the drip back isn't the issue - and yes I did sanitize my fermenters (filled them to the brim with iodophor solution)

I'm going to switch to star-san, and I think I'll try the vodka in the airlock idea - good excuse to make a liquor store run. I already bought a spray bottle for star-san

The film was in every bottle. I didn't notice anything wrong until I was just about to rack - 4 weeks after brew day (secondary looked perfectly clean, no floaties/sediment or anything except trub at the bottom). It was only in taking my FG hydrometer sample with my turkey baster that I noticed I film (could tell I disturbed it/blew a little bubble under it). It didn't even look oily/streaky on top at the time.

These bottles are in the standard 12 oz. brown glass bottles - are they salvageable if I go medieval on them (ie. oxiclean soak, clean, bleach-water-vinegar soak, the regular sanitizing)?

Is there any point in waiting any longer? One thing I remember now is that I didn't boil the basil for the full 5 mins, but atleast 2-3 on the heat before taking it off - could anything from the basil really survive that?

Thanks again for your replies, hopefully with your help I'll nip this in the bud so I can carry on with my new found obsession. This batch was a little discouraging, especially because it was so damn tasty before bottling!

-Gus

 

[snedek]

I feel your pain. I had the same thing happen to a recent attempt at a pumpkin beer. It showed up in the primary, was more pronounced in the secondary, and started showing up in the bottles after a few days. When I bottled it tasted fine but I tried a bottle five days after bottling and it did not taste quite right. I only tried it to check the carbonation, I'm worried about potential bottle bombs as well.

This hurt my motivation pretty significantly but i'm hoping I'll regain the motivation to keep on brewing when I go to bottle another batch which is sitting in the primary (as long as that one did not get infected as well!)

 

[gbuttar]

Update - went through with all the steps I mentioned in my first post, except ventilating my stove area better.

Two weeks ago I brewed a Hefeweizen (PM), and am fermenting it in my glass carboy now (planning on 4 weeks). I used a starter (new vile of WLP300) and had VERY vigorous fermentation within 8 hours or so (used a blowoff tube into a jug of starsan). Krausen just fell a few days ago, and now I'm noticing the start of what looks like the same film I had on my last *****. I took a hydrometer sample - SG was 1.015 (target is 1.013), but it tasted sour and thin, not vinegary, more of an acidic/cidery sour. I'm going to wait on it to see what it does anyway.

The ONLY equipment that is the same up to this point in the process is my kettle, metal spoon used for stirring during boil only, and glass carboy (carboy only thing post boil).

So I'm thinking it must either be airborne, or something in my carboy I'm not getting to - I'm leaning towards the carboy, because on my last batch, I used it as a secondary, and it was after sitting in there for two weeks the infection started to show (now it's after two weeks in the carboy as a primary it's showing up).

I soaked the carboy in oxyclean for a few days, scrubbed with a carboy brush, rinsed, then soaked in bleach/water/vinegar solution for a few days, rinsed, and then used star-san before my latest batch to sanitize.

I also went over my whole kitchen with bleach the day before, and star-san on brew day, and got new air filters for my furnace/AC and also turned off the air on brew day, in case something was getting blown around.

I'm a little lost as to where I should go from here. Should replacing my carboy be the next step? or brewing outside?

The only thing that is really different between my first batch (successful) and these, is that for the first one I did not strain out the hop pellets. Other than that, the only changes I've made are improvements to sanitation. Could I have a house bug that just couldn't live in my hoppier pale ale?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated - I promise my first born child to anyone who can help me kill this thing.

 

[zepolmot]

Are you still doing a partial boil? I'm not positive that the store bought water I normally get is pasteurized or anything that would suggest it is microbe free. If you wound up getting the same brand it may just be that the water has the same bugs in it.

Maybe try doing a batch that you can do as a full boil and see if that develops your issue again?

 

[cervezarara]

You mention that you strain your hop pellets. Do you have a plastic funnel or strainer? If so, these may have small scratches that harbor some bacteria. If you are straining cooled wort, this is a potential source of contamination.

You could try using the muslin hop bags for boiling your hops. Some hop particles still pass through these bags during the boil, but the majority will be contained. Just pack them loosely (about 2 oz. pellets per bag) so the wort circulates through the hops well for isomerization.

Anything that touches wort/beer after it has cooled below ~165 must be sanitized, as I'm sure you know. If the carboy has a small chip or crack, then it could be a hiding place for bacteria. How about your hydrometer sample? Are you returning it to the carboy? I sanitize my test tube prior to drawing a sample, as it is difficult to transfer the sample from the carboy to the tube without touching the end of the thief to the inside of the tube.

I really hope you find the source of your contamination.

 

[unionrdr]

I never use more than 1oz of hops in the small muslin hop sacks. Pellets blow up to the size of a baseball in the wort. And I wonder,did you remove any spigots on the ale pales,cleaning the mounting hole,seals,& the spigot itself? I use aquarium lift tube cleaning brushes for cleaning out spigots I've soaked in PBW solution. A dobie to scrub the seals lightly. A soft cloth,maybe a brush on the mounting hole. That area is the most over looked one to harbor nasties. I also turn the lid bottom side up,pour PBW into the recessed seal area,& use a soft toothbrush to clean the seal area well. Then all get rinsed in tap water,dried & reassembled to the fermenter. Fill with 1 gallon of star-san to swish around in fermenter after pouring it over the inside of the lid,into said FV. Give it a couple minutes,then open spigot with storage jug under it to drain out the star-san,sanitizing the inside of the spigot at the same time. See if this helps,it got rid of remaining "old beer/hop smells" for me.

 

[BOBrob]

Hello gbuttar.The first recipe you posted was a little confusing. For an extract 90 min. is a long time to boil, unless it was steep grains 40 / add DME & hops @30 / hops@15 /and hops & basil @ 5min.to flame out. Also it called for 1wk. primary & 1 wk. secondary; and you did 2 Wks. in each I believe. If you followed the recipe the way it was written ,it seems to imply to boil the DME for the 90 minutes and that may give "extract twang". The sour ,acidic and gushing sound like infection, assuming you drink the beer cold. In the second post the hefeweizen at 2 weeks will taste thin and not knowing the recipe you may be tasting hops or yeast. I would leave it alone for a week until it clears and the yeast has a chance to clean itself up take another gravity sample. If the gravity is still at 1.015 I would rack to my priming bucket & bottle it. Wait 2 weeks cool it down in the fridge for a couple of days and taste it. A glass carboy can get infected, but its not easy. I would suspect the bung, or airlock and replace them first. If this batch is bad we need lots of details, somebody will figure it out if you dont. Right now to soon to tell, and useing the blow tube was a good idea on the hefe they can be active. Step away from the carboy! Just peek at it for a week and if you plan to switch to a bung and airlock get new ones clean & sanitized fill the lock with vodka. Hope this helps.Cheers

 

[gbuttar]

thanks again for the quick replies

@ zep - yah, still partial boil. I think I used deer park water, not 100% sure though - I believe they UV/ozone disinfect and then sanitize - I've just been spraying the top of the jug with star san before topping off. Next time I'll boil the top-off water or do a mini batch that I can full boil in my little kettle

@ cerveza - I strained different ways the two different times with different equipment - first with a cleaned/sanitized SS kitchen strained, the second I used hop bags, but also strained with a boiled then sanitized hop bag when transferring to my glass carboy. I bought a new thief that I used in this latest batch, and always drink my hydro samples, never return. Obviously I sanitize it before sampling. I'll inspect my glass carboy for little chips/cracks I may have missed, but I'd be surprised if anything survived my oxyclean/acidified bleach/star san apocalypse I brought down after my first infected batch.

@ unionrdr - The new funnel/boiled hop bag, glass carboy, new stopper/blowoff tube, wine thief, thermometer, and my starter obviously, were the only things that made contact with my wort this second time (to the best of my knowledge). All these plastics were new, but I also gave them a good cleaning/star san soak prior to use.

From what I've read, and what I can gather from tasting it, this sounds like lacto. Is it possible to have this around my apartment/on dust particles? Anyone have experience getting rid of a house bug/workign around it? My apartment is pretty clean, and my kitchen (brewspace) is immaculate on brew day.

I'm guessing it's more likely that it's surviving on my equipment, but like I mentioned before, the glass carboy is really the only thing post boil that is the same as my last bad batch.

For the sake of something I may be overlooking, these are the things that changed between my first batch (good) and my second two batches (bad)

-first batch was only extract, no grains
-first batch was dry yeast, second two I used white lab vials, one with a starter, one without
-first batch I did not strain my hop pellets, second two I did using different methods/equipment each time

Thanks again for all the help, I'll also try minimizing exposure to air post boil in my next batch, although I thought I did a good job of that last time (covered with sanitized lid while cooling, covered carboy with sanitized foil during shaking etc. before pitching yeast and putting carboy cap on

In the meantime, I'll RDW and have a commercial brew

 

[unionrdr]

Hmmm..I have heard of airborne nasties from heating/cooling ducts becoming airborne. Maybe see if they can get the duct work cleaned. It'd be easier to get done in a house situation,rather than an apartment building. Otherwise,maybe put some Hepa filters on the ducts to eliminate that possibility. But I always put a lid on the BK after late malt additions while allowing it to steep the newly added remaining malts. Stays on during ice bath too.

 

[subliminalurge]

How are you doing your star-san soaks? My habit is to mix up 5 gallons at a time and keep it in an extra Ale Pale. Everything that needs sanitation gets tossed in the bucket at the beginning of the brew session and pulled back out as needed, so it's all getting an hour+ of soaking. Tubing is tricky since the inside (part that matters) can keep bubbles if you're not careful. Stick one end in then feed the rest while making sure the first end never comes out of the liquid. You want that tubing 100% full of sanitizer, no bubbles.

Only had one infection in 6 years of sanitizing this way, and I know the exact cause of that infection, which was a silly (panic mode) mistake on my part rather than a problem with my methods.

I'd take an extra close look at your tubing and racking canes. Those are the trickiest items to get fully sanitized on the inside.

The carboy should be safe provided there are no chips. Clean, dry glass is a tough place for bacteria to live long term, and it's an easy thing for sanitizer to do its job on.

Another thing that comes to mind is that maybe your apartment building just has lots of lacto floating around (it's an EXTREMELY common bacteria). If that were, in fact, the cause, then it might be worth looking into aerating with an oxygen tank.

The other thing I would look at is your top off water. Go ahead and preboil it a few days ahead of time, put it into some jugs while still hot enough to sanitize them, then chill them in the fridge. Although a lot of people swear it's fine, I just don't trust store bought water. (Although I'm perfectly comfortable pouring water straight from the tap into my carboy. Go figure....)

I dunno. It sounds like you're pretty much doing things right, just tossing some ideas out there.

Another rule I like to follow is to make sure that all containers are still wet with star san when racking beer into them. Doesn't matter if it's a carboy, keg, or bottle, I don't consider it sanitized if the beer isn't forcing out star san foam as the container fills.