HefeRyezen Recipe

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Brew-Happy

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I am putting together a future brew and wanted some advice.

I am sensitive to wheat which bites as I truly enjoyed hefe's and dunkel's :(

So I am thinking of sub'ing the wheat with rye. The recipe is listed below. I am trying to decide whether to use rye malt or flaked rye. Any opinions?


HefeRyezen

2gal batch
Yeast: Danstar Munich German Wheat Dry Yeast

2 lbs Extra Light DME
0.5 lbs Rye malt/flaked rye

0.5 oz Cascade @ 45mins
0.25 oz Cascade @ 5mins

Ferment 68-72*F for 5days
Bottle for 7days.

Beer Tools Output
SRM:3.67
IBU: 23.9
ABV: 5%

I am keeping things simple for now to get a good handle on the process. The dry yeast will best for me as I am using a water bath to control temps for now.
 

DeathBrewer

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You will need to do a partial mash. You can't use rye without mashing. See my sig for details on how to do an easy PM.

Also, I would go with 50% rye and 50% barley if you want a true roggenbier.

That sucks you are sensetive to wheat...what happens? allergic reaction?
 
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Brew-Happy

Brew-Happy

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DB,

Does the PM apply to the flaked rye as well? Thanks for the info. Now I have to learn what a roggenbier is :)

Not an allergic reaction. For years I had what would have been labeled as Irritable Bowels. Annoying too. Plus, random joint pains associated with it. Took blood test that showed I was showing antibodies to wheat. Quit eating it and WOW. Whole new world. That was several years ago and I still think about how good hefe's were to drink.

Edit: LOL! Now I realize was working on a roggenbier all the time. Total noob :)
 

DeathBrewer

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Here are the details for the Roggenbier style.

Flaked and Malted will all need to be mashed. I don't think they make a rye malt extract.

Malted has enzymes, so really it can be mashed by itself. It's crazy to do, tho...it turns into a big sticky mess, so I would put at least some barley in there...even with only a partial mash using my bag method.

If you are only doing a 2 gallon batch anyway, I would do the following:

Mash @ 152°F:
3 lbs Rye Malt
1 lbs Munich Malt

Add 1 lb of Light DME

I would skip the cascade and go with a noble hops, using only a 60 minute addition as true to the roggenbier style. Tettnanger, Hallertau, Saaz, etc.

Actually, some saaz at the end might smooth out the flavor, so I take that back. A 0.5-1 ounce addition of saaz in the last 5-10 minutes of the boil can really make a difference.

Roggenbiers are different from hefeweizens. The flavor is more prominant and it is spicier than wheat. It's good, but can be overpowering to some.

Let me know if you need any help with partial mashing. It's not much different than steeping, and it's the only way you're going to properly use rye.
 
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Glad I could get the juices flowing here.

Thanks DB for the layout. I think that would work for me. I will be posting back in the near future. I first have to bottle, condition, and drink my other two beers. :mug:

Maybe mid summer. I like to plan early so that I get noobish excitement over and properly plan the brew.

Thanks again
 

DeathBrewer

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You got me hooked. I picked up the following to brew tonight:

4.5 lb Rye Malt
1.5 lb German Vienna Malt
1.5 lb German Pilsner Malt
1.0 lb German Munich Malt
0.5 lb Belgian Caravienne Malt
2.0 oz American Chocolate Malt
2.0 oz Carafa II

I'm using WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale Yeast

Hops I haven't quite decided on yet. I'll probably use Tettnanger for bittering and a little Czech Saaz at the end to smooth things out.

Thanks for bringing this up today. Should be a fun brew while I finish cleaning my new carboys and keg my Compound Ale.
:mug:
:mug:
 
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WOW!

That is way more complicated than I was thinking. BTW, I am not skeerd of complicated grain bills, just trying to discern the individual components in a beer.

I will get to complicated one day. Already have a geeky beer in mind. ;)

Good luck DB. Looks like it will be tasty.
 

DeathBrewer

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I'll break it down for ya :)

Rye Malt - Spiciness and rye character, a touch less than 50% of the grist.
Vienna - Nice, smooth maltiness
Pilsner - Crisp, dry with a touch of light malty flavor
Munich - Deep maltiness...strengthen the malt backbone
Caravienne - Sharp, clean sweetness...better than any american crystal malt IMO
Chocolate - Slight color and rounds out the flavor
Carafa - Color

Tettnanger - Provides bitterness for balance and will accent the spiciness of the rye
Saaz - smooths out malt flavors

WLP300 - Banana and Cloves..."wheat" yeast characters

I could have went with just munich and rye, but I wanted to play around a bit, and I wanted it to be a bit lighter...not overly malty.
:mug:
 

ericd

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You could try spelt but you'd have to malt it yourself. Weyerman makes a spelt malt but I haven't seen it for sale anywhere.
 

DeathBrewer

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I got poor efficiency. I should have milled the rye in the little shredder instead of using our big block mill...they're too hard and just don't get crushed like they should.

Intended for around 1.046 and ended at 1.039.

Tasted great, tho. I'm going to add a little wheat extract to get the gravity back up. It will still be to style. I think it was 62% efficiency or something...much lower than i've been used to lately (our big batches have been almost 90%)

I did a FWH of tettnanger and a 60 minute german hersbrucker addition, then ended with a little saaz. I think it was only 0.5 ounces at each step but I don't have my notes with me.

This one should ferment fast, so I'll let you know how it tastes in less than two weeks
:mug:
 

DeathBrewer

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I've used flaked rye plenty of times, but I wanted to brew this to style.

There also might be problems with conversion if I used flaked for the majority of the grist.
 

DeathBrewer

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I did a saccharification rest for 60 minutes @ 150°F.

I did a decoction mash-out for 15 minutes @ 160°F(didn't quite hit temp with mash-out, said screw it...it'll be fine :D)

My "tea-bag" sparge for 15 minutes @ 160°F
 
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Thanks for the update on this.

Definitely been thinking about this style lately.
 

DeathBrewer

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Did I mention this beer is ****ing awesome??? I've been drinking it the last few days. Every time a friend takes a pull, I hear a "Dude, this is ****ing awesome" coming from the kitchen, so it must be true :D

Here's the final recipe.

032509 Roggenbier

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

15-D German Wheat And Rye Beer, Roggenbier (German Rye Beer)

Min OG: 1.046 Max OG: 1.056
Min IBU: 10 Max IBU: 20
Min Clr: 14 Max Clr: 19 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 10.50
Anticipated OG: 1.044 Plato: 10.93
Anticipated SRM: 14.2
Anticipated IBU: 14.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 64 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.47 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.037 SG 9.34 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
11.9 1.25 lbs. Briess LME- Weizen America 1.035 4
42.9 4.50 lbs. Rye Malt America 1.030 4
14.3 1.50 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
9.5 1.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
14.3 1.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
4.8 0.50 lbs. CaraVienne Malt Belgium 1.034 22
1.2 0.13 lbs. Chocolate Malt America 1.029 350
1.2 0.13 lbs. Carafa II Germany 1.030 450

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Tettnanger Pellets Pellet 4.20 8.5 First WH
0.50 oz. German Hersbrucker Pellet Pellet 2.40 5.4 60 min.
0.50 oz. Saaz (Czech) Pellet Pellet 2.50 0.9 5 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 9.25
Water Qts: 12.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 3.00 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.30 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 160 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 160 Time: 10


Total Mash Volume Gal: 3.74 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
The First Wort Hops made a HUGE difference...makes it really soft, the spice comes through perfectly. There may be a *bit* too much hop flavor for style, but I plan to brew this again and try some variations.

Brew-happy, did you ever decide on anything? I only added wheat to this because of my poor efficiency, but I could definitely update you with a partial mash version!
 

snailsongs

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Deathbrewer, I'm going to order this grain bill today....my mouth is already watering. Can I just bump the Pilsner, Vienna or Munich up 1 lb (and which would be best?) and add a lb of wheat in place of the LME? I'd prefer to go AG with it, but I want the same "dude, this is ****ing amazing....." roggenbier that you have.

.....and, this might be a dumb question, but I got stung by Pils the only time I've used it thus far.....do you do a 90 minute boil even for a small amount of Pils like this or will the DMS flavor issue not really occur at that percentage?

.....and, thanks for another awesome looking recipe.

.....and sorry for hijacking this thread, OP.
 

DeathBrewer

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If you want to go all-grain, but keep the wheat, just throw in a 50/50 mix of wheat and 2-row to make up the gravity of the extract. That would be about 1 lb each of wheat and pale malt.

You may get better efficiency than 64%. If that is the case, you'll need to scale the recipe down by removing a portion of all the base malts (I wouldn't bother changing the caravienne, chocolate or carafa.)
 

DeathBrewer

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This beer got finished last night. Only takes us about 3 days to go through a good, light beer. I'm brewing it again next week...I may scale it up to 11 gallons, as I should have a keg fermenter free by then.
 
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Thank DB for the update! Sounds great. I am still conditioning the beer I have now, but in the future I will look back to this post for info.

Will be trying this!!
 

MVKTR2

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Brew-Happy I concur with DeathBrewer, he's steering you the right way... as he tends too do:) I probably shouldn't even post this as he gave you a very good solution in his second post!

If you don't want things to be so "complicated", I'd just do an All-Grain Mash/Partial Mash (should be VERY easy to handle on the stove-top for a 2-gal. batch). My proposal for an easier recipe:

2-3# Pilsner or Munich... or split this quantity between the 2 however you'd like!
2-3# Rye Malt
4-8 oz. Flaked Rye (this is more for head retention/mouthfeel than flavor I usually use flaked wheat, but rye would do fine for this bier)
up to 1# Light DME as needed

German Hops (Tradition is usually more affordable and a phenominal hop)

This would put you more in line with a "simple" Roggenbier, but feel free to keep the Cascades etc. Rye malt is subtle and unless you have very sensetive taste buds, low hop flavor, & low hop bitterness 1/2# is going to be hard to detect in the flavor profile. As much as I hate to say it, one of my fav. summer biers is Redhook's Sun Rye and I just placed an order to do a Blonde Rye ale. I'm using 3-4# rye in a 5.5 Gal batch... would use more if I wanted more Roggenbier character. Hmmm I think I'll post my recipe and get some reflections.

Schlante,
Phillip
 
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3 days? Glad that wasn't just a solo affair or you'd have trouble making it through the bathroom door tp pee away the water part of beer. ;)

You asked what my roggen recipe was in another thread. I have one some what like yours with thing slike chocolate Rye malt etc., but I went with a more hefe style roggen this time.

42L
4.5 kg Pils (gambrinus)
3.5 kg Rye Flake
0.5 kg Honey Malt (gambrinus)
75g Tett (FWH)

WB-06 underpitched

1.056 OG

Yours does sound yummy though.
 

DeathBrewer

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Looks like we have similar styles. Honey malt gives that nice sweetness to it, that tett adds a wonderful soft but present spiciness. I haven't always been happy with the flaked wheat/rye, but I've never used it in this style.

I don't think my LHBS supplies gambrinus pils. What's it like? Is it crisp like a german pils, or grainy like a belgian?

Oh, brewed an ESB tonight and drank a ****load of different homebrews. Off to bed...g'night fellas...
 
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Crisp like a German pils. The malter is German. The malting house is in Canada about 1.5 hours away from me.

I find it a pain in the pocket book to have rye malt shipped to me so I've been using flake. I do have some chocolate rye malt and roasted rye malt though. Next roggen will be more like this one. Been menaing to make this for a while now.

Code:
40 Liter batch
Ingredients:
------------
Amount        Item                                      Type        % or IBU      
4.25 kg       Rye, Flaked (2.0 SRM)                     Grain       41.46 %       
3.50 kg       Munich 10 - Gambrinus (10.0 SRM)          Grain       34.15 %       
1.50 kg       Vienna - Gambrinus (5.5 SRM)              Grain       14.63 %       
0.50 kg       Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)     Grain       4.88 %        
0.25 kg       Honey Malt (25.0 SRM)                     Grain       2.44 %        
0.13 kg       Chocolate Rye Malt (250.0 SRM)            Grain       1.22 %        
0.13 kg       Special B Malt (180.0 SRM)                Grain       1.22 %        
75.00 gm      Tettnang [3.00 %]  (60 min) (First Wort HoHops        14.1 IBU      
1.06 tsp      Amylase Enzyme (Primary 3.0 days)         Misc
Though I'll probably drop the amylase and replace the vienna for pils.
 

DeathBrewer

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I've heard so many good things about chocolate rye and chocolate wheat but I have yet to try it. My LHBS doesn't carry it and I'm too busy to go anywhere else, too cheap to buy online. I could buy a 55 lb bag through my LHBS :) Maybe soon when I start rolling through 18 gallon batches faster :D
 
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