Heatsticks vs mounting element in keggle...

[Cpt_Kirks]

It's not the ground causing you problems. The ground wire is litterally not connected to anything in a properly built system. You can bang on it with a hammer, piss on it, call it names, whatever you want, and it will never cause your GFI to pop.

The only reason the GFI would pop is because something is allowing current to escape from the hot-line of your power source. When the GFI sees that there is more current on the hot line than there is on the neutral line, it will kill the juice.

I pulled the encapsulated element from that stick, and tried it in a pan of water, with the ground attached to the pan. It works fine, no trips. The hot and neutral connections are fully potted in JB weld.

I'm going to try mounting it in the keggle. If it trips the GFCI, I can just unscrew it and replace it....if I ever get the $&@#*&#$%@ holes drilled...

 

[Dgonza9]

Daaaaang, elements require a BIG hole. I drilled until my arms got tired, and the hole is still a little too small.

I still have one more hole in my HLT, then I can start on the boil keggle.

I was right where you were about a week ago, except my corded 1/2" drill was smoking while I was trying to widen one hole, with still another to go. I was blaming my drill bits, etc.

What I learned was that I needed to use my cordless drill with a gear box. I dialed it down to first gear (has 1 and 2). This gave it the right power with the right speed. A little oil and really it never even got hot.

Honestly, took five minutes after that.

Here's a shot of the drill I used: IGNORE THE ARROW. IT'S THE 1 AND 2 SELECTOR SWITCH YOU WANT TO BE SURE TO PUT ON 1!

IGNORE THE ARROW. IT'S THE 1 AND 2 SELECTOR SWITCH YOU WANT TO BE SURE TO PUT ON 1!

 

[Jknapp]

I originally used heatsticks, but then mounted them. I'm real happy with 2x 2000w elements for 6 gal batches. Don't think I'd do it any other way. Don't need a pid, don't need a ssr. Turn them both on, or 1 at a time. Easy peasy.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I originally used heatsticks, but then mounted them. I'm real happy with 2x 2000w elements for 6 gal batches. Don't think I'd do it any other way. Don't need a pid, don't need a ssr. Turn them both on, or 1 at a time. Easy peasy.

Interesting how you positioned the elements. I'm thinking of placing them closer together. Once I get the first hole big enough, I'll screw the element in temporarily to see how to place the other.

My elements will be on the back of the keggle, my switched outlets are on the back of my stand, so the cords are out of the way.

Front:

Close Up Front:

Back:

 

[AnchorBock]

Is it safe to rest a copper immersion chiller on an element or do you need a false bottom to take the weight?

 

[Walker]

Is it safe to rest a copper immersion chiller on an element or do you need a false bottom to take the weight?

Mine rests on the element and I haven't had any issues, but it probably helps that (due to the way my coil is shaped), the bulk of the force is applied to the base of the element where it is most stable.

 

[Walker]

Forgot to add...

if you make the top parts of the coil "J" shaped, you can hang it on the rim of the kettle for support instead of letting the weight fully rest on the element.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

Is it safe to rest a copper immersion chiller on an element or do you need a false bottom to take the weight?

When you think about it, you only have the weight of the copper to worry about. It's not really that much weight.

This hasn't been an issue for me yet. I use heatsticks and removed them before using my IC. Now, I have a plate chiller, am mounting the elements in my HLT and BK, and am thinking of converting my IC coil to a HERMS coil. So, I might have to play around with this.

 

[klyph]

I rest a 50' 1/2" copper chiller on my element, and it's mounted with a weldless fitting.

 

[KaceMN]

For those of you who've installed heating element(s) directly through the sides of your keggles/pots...how does this effect whirlpooling functionality?? Does the increased turbulence throw the whirlpool efficiency? If whirlpooling is effected...are there methods to account for this?

 

[klyph]

With a pump that kicks a strong whirlpool, you'll still get a decent cone in the middle, but it won't work quite as well as without the element being there.

 

[kal]

My opinion: Heatsticks scare the sh*t out of me and I would never use one.

I agree with the above. I think heat sticks are an electrocution waiting to happen. I will never criticize anyone for using one but I would never even think about using one.

Older thread but I have to chime in to point out I agree with both comments above. I'd never, ever, use a heatstick myself. The fact that they're not physically attache/stable just scares the crap out of me.

Kal

 

[Dgonza9]

I figured I'd give an update. I mounted two elements and properly potted them in a water proof electrical box. I plug them into a switched gfci and I'm good to go. I've done quite a few 10 gallon batches this way. It's plenty of power and I feel much safer than using heat sticks. They scrub clean in a few seconds afterwards.

In my opinion, 240V isn't needed, though it's maybe a cleaner install and requires less holes.

 

[CanadianQuaffer]

I have a (maybe) stupid question about using heating elements, whether in a heat stick or mounted in your kettle.

How do you control the temeprature of your water? Right now I am forced to do concentrated wort boils on my gas stove in a 4 gallon pot because the stove lacks the power to boil 6 gallons for a full wort boil in my 10 gallon pot. But at least with gas I have *very* precise and immediate control over the temperature of my water.

Is it possible to get *some* sort of control (I'm assuming electric will always be inferior to gas/propane in this regard) with heating elements? I'm asking because I'm toying with the idea of making an all electric brewery in my basement, with elements mounted in my 10 gallon pot, so I can stay out of the kitchen.

Thanks!

Nick

 

[wyzazz]

I have a (maybe) stupid question about using heating elements, whether in a heat stick or mounted in your kettle.

How do you control the temeprature of your water? Right now I am forced to do concentrated wort boils on my gas stove in a 4 gallon pot because the stove lacks the power to boil 6 gallons for a full wort boil in my 10 gallon pot. But at least with gas I have *very* precise and immediate control over the temperature of my water.

Is it possible to get *some* sort of control (I'm assuming electric will always be inferior to gas/propane in this regard) with heating elements? I'm asking because I'm toying with the idea of making an all electric brewery in my basement, with elements mounted in my 10 gallon pot, so I can stay out of the kitchen.

Thanks!

Nick

You need to use a PWM + SSR or PID + SSR combo to control the temps or power of the element in an electric setup. There are tons of threads in this sub-forum with info on various builds.

 

[kal]

How do you control the temeprature of your water?

Most do it with a PID/SSR combination.

Is it possible to get *some* sort of control (I'm assuming electric will always be inferior to gas/propane in this regard) with heating elements?

I'm afraid your assumption is incorrect.

From my FAQ:

What are the benefits of brewing with electricity vs. gas?

There are many benefits to brewing with electricity vs. gas:

- Easier precise control of temperature
- Safer for indoor brewing (no poisonous gases, no emissions)
- Absolutely silent (the bigger gas burners required for brewing sound like jet engines!)
- Much more efficient use of energy (our 5500W heating elements produce ~20,000 BTUs of heat and will outperform an 80,000 BTU propane burner)
- No tanks to refill
- Cheaper to run (use $1-2 in electricity instead of approximately half a tank of propane per batch)

We don't know of one brewer who, after switching to electric, wished they were still using gas.

I'm asking because I'm toying with the idea of making an all electric brewery in my basement.

That's what I do as well. I have complete build plans on my site if you're curious (see my signature).

Kal

 

[CanadianQuaffer]

Thanks Kal, I will definitely be checking your site out!

Please forgive my ignorance, but what is a "PID/SSR combination."? My knowledge of electricity stops after knowing it turns my lights on and it can kill me.

I just assumed that electric heating would be inferior to gas heating when it comes to temperature control because an electric stove is inferior to a gas stove in this regard. Gas responds much more quickly.

And I see you're in Ottawa, just like me! Well, actually I live just outside of Kanata in Dunrobin.

 

[kal]

Hi!

A PID is a "proportional integral derivative controller". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

To quote my website:

A PID controller (proportional integral derivative controller) is a control loop feedback device that is used to continually calculate the difference between the target temperature and the measured temperature and takes the appropriate action to make up for any difference.

A PID controller is an intelligent device that learns and trains itself to the behaviour of a system so as to not overshoot or undershoot the target temperature. It is more advanced than most simple temperature controllers (such as those from Love Controls) that only look at the temperature. A PID controller also considers the rate of change of temperature. This means that as a PID controller sees the target temperature approaching, it knows to "slow down" so that it doesn't overshoot the temperature. A PID controller uses calculus to measure this rate of change instead of simply looking at "am I too high or too low?".

The end result is more a more consistent temperature, one that doesn't continually oscillate over and under the target temperature. The good news is that the PID controller does it all automatically for us. We don't have to have any understanding of how this all works (no need to remember your high school calculus!).

The Auber Instruments SYL-2352 PID controllers we use incorporate more advanced fuzzy logic as compared to some simpler PID controllers for even greater control. In our brewery when we set the target temperature the liquid ramps up to that temperature and stays there. That's really all we care about!

An SSR is a solid state relay that is used to turn the heating element on/off as required. The PID controls it. Think of an SSR as a high powered switch.

Kal

 

[CanadianQuaffer]

I'm left wondering how much one of these costs now, lol! They sound pricey.

 

[kal]

I just assumed that electric heating would be inferior to gas heating when it comes to temperature control because an electric stove is inferior to a gas stove in this regard. Gas responds much more quickly.

If you heated and boiled your beer in the same way as you heat food on an electric stove, then possibly this comparison could be used. But there are differences. FWIW, I've owned both electric (corian cooktop) and gas ranges of various models. I find it's not possible to issue a blanket statement that for ranges gas is better than electric. It's all about how it's implemented. (My first 100% gas stove sucked as it was cheap piece of crap, my second all electric with corian cooktop was great and heated up fast, my current dual fuel [gas top, electric bottom] is too new to tell).

The "speed of response" also doesn't matter I don't think when you're heating 5-20 gallons of wort. There's so much thermal mass that it really doesn't make a difference if the electric element takes 10 seconds to heat up versus a gas element that has 100% heat in about 1 second.

Electric brewers have the element right in the liquid so that 100% of the heat goes into the liquid. Gas brewers probably lose 70-80% of the heat to the atmosphere (it goes around the pot).

Kal

 

[kal]

I'm left wondering how much one of these costs now, lol! They sound pricey.

A PID's about $40. An SSR of the right amperage is around $20. There's all sorts of other "stuff" you may want as well. I suggest you start reading and figure out what you want and then start asking questions/reading.

Kal

 

[CanadianQuaffer]

If you heated and boiled your beer in the same way as you heat food on an electric stove, then possibly this comparison could be used. But there are differences. FWIW, I've owned both electric (corian cooktop) and gas ranges of various models. I find it's not possible to issue a blanket statement that for ranges gas is better than electric. It's all about how it's implemented. (My first 100% gas stove sucked as it was cheap piece of crap, my second all electric with corian cooktop was great and heated up fast, my current dual fuel [gas top, electric bottom] is too new to tell).

The "speed of response" also doesn't matter I don't think when you're heating 5-20 gallons of wort. There's so much thermal mass that it really doesn't make a difference if the electric element takes 10 seconds to heat up versus a gas element that has 100% heat in about 1 second.

Electric brewers have the element right in the liquid so that 100% of the heat goes into the liquid. Gas brewers probably lose 70-80% of the heat to the atmosphere (it goes around the pot).

Kal

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. As for electric vs gas, I was referring to those occasions where you you need to bring something down from a boil to a simmer ASAP. With gas all you do is crank the knob from high to low and bang, boil to simmer in seconds...with an electric stove it can take minutes for that boil to calm down to a simmer.

But the way you explained the superiority of an element (using 100% of its heat) vs gas makes all the sense in the world.

All I'm looking to do for now is modify my kettle only so I'm going to have to really pour through your website to see how to do this. Now that I've seen it, I actually remember one of my friends that I brew with found your site about a year ago and he couldn't stop talking about it...now I see why!

 

[Dgonza9]

I have a (maybe) stupid question about using heating elements, whether in a heat stick or mounted in your kettle.

How do you control the temeprature of your water? Right now I am forced to do concentrated wort boils on my gas stove in a 4 gallon pot because the stove lacks the power to boil 6 gallons for a full wort boil in my 10 gallon pot. But at least with gas I have *very* precise and immediate control over the temperature of my water.

Is it possible to get *some* sort of control (I'm assuming electric will always be inferior to gas/propane in this regard) with heating elements? I'm asking because I'm toying with the idea of making an all electric brewery in my basement, with elements mounted in my 10 gallon pot, so I can stay out of the kitchen.

Thanks!

Nick

I do not have a PID and SSR for my boil kettle. My estimate is that 2000W is about right to boil 6-7 gallons of total liquid for a 5.5 gallons batch. I mounted two of these in the keggle so I can do 10 gallons. This way no PID/SSR is needed. I just plug the mounted elements into a switched gfci and turn them on or off with the switch.

Works well, though the PID is also a great solution if you want more power for quickly heating liquids and then want to control the boil a bit more precisely.