Heating element placement

[Atticmonkey]

Hey guys,
Im working on my electric boil kettle and ran into a little issue im worried about. I have a ultra low density element that is the type that kinda snakes back and forth and I was planning on using a welded coupling to mount it to the kettle. So to be able to spin it into the coupling I had to have 4.5" of space from the bottom.

So my question is do you think the element placement being that high up is going to cause issues during my boil with temp differnces from top to bottom of the kettle? Or will the rolling boil move the wort around enough to even out the temps?

Thanks for the help.

Jason

 

[lschiavo]

I dont think you will have a problem. There are plenty of those elements out there in BK's. A good boil will stir things up just fine.

Without boiling in my HLT for example, the water below the element is a bit cooler but the convection currents are no where near what you would have with a rolling boil.

 

[GreenMonti]

You can only do what you can do. Ya-know. The 4.5"....is that on the outside or inside? It that the center line of the coupling? I would keep it as low as possible and yes, once things start to boil you will be fine. It will all mix

Just for kicks,
These are the last two I welded for an electric brewer. The keggle on the left, you can see the element coupling at the bottom. Both keggles have element couplings, but in the pic the one on the right side has the coupling on the back.

This is just a closer shot of how low I tried to keep it as low as possible. You see the skirt seam weld at the bottom.

 

[lschiavo]

gorgeous welds!

 

[Atticmonkey]

Can the boiling wort be recirculated to help even out the overall temp? I know it would have to be returned to the kettle under the surface to prevent hot side aeration but im considering that as an option if I need to.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Can the boiling wort be recirculated to help even out the overall temp? I know it would have to be returned to the kettle under the surface to prevent hot side aeration but im considering that as an option if I need to.

It will cool during circulation... you will have to makeup that heat loss in order to maintain a boil. I don't think re-circ during the boil is needed.

 

[jfkriege]

I recirculate during the boil just to keep things fairly even, since my boil kettle is fairly tall and narrow. I have not had any issues with doing this and find that it works to even out temperature.

 

[Atticmonkey]

I recirculate during the boil just to keep things fairly even, since my boil kettle is fairly tall and narrow. I have not had any issues with doing this and find that it works to even out temperature.

Do you recirc constantly during the boil or just on and off when you think you need it?

 

[jfkriege]

I recirculate slowly for the entire boil. My heating element and RTD are low in the kettle and I want temperatures as even as possible. I am not sure if it is the best thing to do, but it works for me and I have not noticed any sort of negative effect.

 

[GreenMonti]

Can the boiling wort be recirculated to help even out the overall temp? I know it would have to be returned to the kettle under the surface to prevent hot side aeration but im considering that as an option if I need to.

I can't say that I would bother to recirculate during the boil. What you would have going on is something similar to a calandria. If you not aware, some of the big boys boil via a calandria. Those units only boil a portion of the wort at a time. Jet-star claims the wort is cycled about 25 times over an hour through theirs.

 

[GreenMonti]

I recirculate slowly for the entire boil. My heating element and RTD are low in the kettle and I want temperatures as even as possible. I am not sure if it is the best thing to do, but it works for me and I have not noticed any sort of negative effect.

What pump do you use for this?
What is the temp going into the pump, do you know?

 

[gunner65]

What pump do you use for this?
What is the temp going into the pump, do you know?

Most use a marh 809 and the temp would be around 212f

 

[GreenMonti]

Most use a marh 809 and the temp would be around 212f

Ha,Ha. Thanks.

I know what boiling is, but if the pump is being used to keep temps even. Then the wort wont be at boiling temp when it gets run through the pump. Also the pump would not like the vapor bubbles if it was boiling when it went into the pump.

Edit; My little giant pump is only rated for 200*F. I was just checking if the LG was standing up to the abuse.

 

[wildwest450]

I know what boiling is, but if the pump is being used to keep temps even. Then the wort wont be at boiling temp when it gets run through the pump. Also the pump would not like the vapor bubbles if it was boiling when it went into the pump.

I agree, that sounds like a bad idea.

 

[jfkriege]

I use one of the lg 3-md-hc pumps. The temp going in is the temp of boiling wort. The main reason for the recirculation is how tall the kettle is compared to its width. I am not sure if it stratifies, bit I dont see an issue with being sure. It also makes sure the pump is sanitized enough to pump out the cooled wort into its fermenter.

You can see how it is setup here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/modular-electric-brewery-177852/

Edit:I have not used the 809, but the LG is super easy to prime (I open a valve and it is primed) and has no trouble with any sort of bubbles that are produced. I am also not flowing at a very high rate.

Joshua

 

[GreenMonti]

I use one of the lg 3-md-hc pumps. The temp going in is the temp of boiling wort. The main reason for the recirculation is how tall the kettle is compared to its width. I am not sure if it stratifies, bit I dont see an issue with being sure. It also makes sure the pump is sanitized enough to pump out the cooled wort into its fermenter.

You can see how it is setup here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/modular-electric-brewery-177852/

Joshua

Your pump looks much different then mine. Is that the whole model number? 3-MD-HC

I know your build. I like what you did a lot. I didn't pay attention to your pumps then as I didn't know your process. Or I don't remember reading it.

Edit; Your temps may be close to boiling but I don't think your actually boiling when you draw the liquid into the pump. Also at 30 sec to 1 min of running wort at a temp above 170, you will have accomplished the same sanitizing as running it during the boil.

 

[electricbrewer]

Just to chime in here..... When you mount the heating element horizontal, as it should be, the convection currents will recirculate the water/wort on its own.. I don't see the need for a pump.

Justin

 

[Tom]

The threads on the heating elements are 1" straight thread, not tapered like the usual plumbing fittings. Find one that fits your element before welding it on.

 

[passedpawn]

Just to chime in here..... When you mount the heating element horizontal, as it should be, the convection currents will recirculate the water/wort on its own.. I don't see the need for a pump.

Justin

Not true. I wish it were, but the water in my keggle seriously stratifies until the boil.

It is quite a problem for my HLT. Pump, or stirring, is absolutely necessary.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

The threads on the heating elements are 1" straight thread, not tapered like the usual plumbing fittings. Find one that fits your element before welding it on.

I have two, 5500 watt and one, 1500 watt elements threaded into 1" NPT couplings. I have heard that not using straight thread couplings is a problem, but NPT has worked for me.

On another note... I circulate my BK for the last 15 minutes or so of the boil.

 

[Tom]

Yes, some tapered fittings fit, some don't. Just check them before welding them.

 

[gunner65]

Here is the one I had welded in it is a stailnless nut from bargainfittings.

 

[jfkriege]

I used the same nut above and used high temperature solder to attach it. Works like a charm.

 

[Tom]

Nice work.

 

[gunner65]

Nice work.

YES! he did really nice work and free. I cannot thank him enough. He isnt a beer drinker so its a bottle of bourbon for him

 

[lschiavo]

Not true. I wish it were, but the water in my keggle seriously stratifies until the boil.

It is quite a problem for my HLT. Pump, or stirring, is absolutely necessary.

I haven't yet converted my BK to electric but I also get bad stratification in my HLT without stirring. I found a great deal on a Taco domestic hot water recirc pump on ebay. It has worked great. Anyone else using these?

 

[passedpawn]

I haven't yet converted my BK to electric but I also get bad stratification in my HLT without stirring. I found a great deal on a Taco domestic hot water recirc pump on ebay. It has worked great. Anyone else using these?

Ah, I was wondering what that was. I suppose they are used for moving water from a water heater to solar heating panels, or maybe in hotel loop systems.

How much did you pay?

 

[lschiavo]

Ah, I was wondering what that was. I suppose they are used for moving water from a water heater to solar heating panels, or maybe in hotel loop systems.

How much did you pay?

I think it was about $70 new via ebay. I checked some other sources and it was close to a $200 pump. I cant remember the exact details but I think it has something like a 12 foot (maybe more) head rating and at least 200 degree temp rating.

Over the height of the HLT, it really moves some water! I have a copper elbow on the return at the top of the keg aimed horizontally and slightly downward and it sets up a nice whirlpool which really seems to help with the HERMS coil.