Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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theveganbrewer

theveganbrewer

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Turbinado? The video shows him dumping bags of dextrose into the fermentor.
I just went back to that screen cap you posted. It's Cerelose® Dextrose

Cerelose® Dextrose is the monohydrate form of dextrose, perfect for a wide variety of applications. It has a cool, mild sweetness to enhance flavor and a high reducing capacity to support browning. It is 100% fermentable, provides high osmolality and is available in standard, fine, and coarse grades, as well as in liquid form. Coarse grade NF is also available for pharmaceutical tablet applications.

SOAB. I was hoping we had something solid with Turbinado. Where did you see the video, is it online yet?
 

HawksBrewer

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I just went back to that screen cap you posted. It's Cerelose® Dextrose

Cerelose® Dextrose is the monohydrate form of dextrose, perfect for a wide variety of applications. It has a cool, mild sweetness to enhance flavor and a high reducing capacity to support browning. It is 100% fermentable, provides high osmolality and is available in standard, fine, and coarse grades, as well as in liquid form. Coarse grade NF is also available for pharmaceutical tablet applications.

SOAB. I was hoping we had something solid with Turbinado. Where did you see the video, is it online yet?
I used close to a lb of Piloncillo sugar in my Heady-inspired DIPA. I also achieved a much higher than calculated attenuation (I had to do at least one thing wrong, ya know?) so it looks like I might be around 8.6% ABV. Oops. Blow-off smells fan-freaking-tastic, like straight peach and apricot.

Quick question for those of you experienced w/ Conan. Does it require a true diacetyl rest or am I safe leaving in the low to mid 60s? I know I'll get a better dry hop at a higher temp, but wondered if a true d-rest was necessary.
 

scottland

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It's like colors. Too many different colors just make brown.
I hate to say it, but I disagree. Stone's Enjoy By IPA uses 4 different hops at 15 min, 3 different hops at flameout, and 2 more hops in the dry hop.

That's 9 different 'aroma' hops. Enjoy By doesn't taste brown, unless 'brown' tastes AMAZING
 
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theveganbrewer

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I hate to say it, but I disagree. Stone's Enjoy By IPA uses 4 different hops at 15 min, 3 different hops at flameout, and 2 more hops in the dry hop.

That's 9 different 'aroma' hops. Enjoy By doesn't taste brown, unless 'brown' tastes AMAZING

It sort of tastes like it's a bunch of different hops. I don't really get that impression from Heady.
 

Petekiteworld

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Video is 7mins and on a constant loop at the brewery. Shows tom fawc pearl, cerelose, and possibly other clues. I need to watch it again more carefully this weekend...
 

snail

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The video looks like when they were at the pub before Hurricane Irene took them out. The system he is using in the video is a lot different than what he is using now. They made many different beers when they were at the pub so who knows what beer they are making in the video...
 
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Partial Mash update from 3/17 Brewday (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/heady-topper-can-you-clone-390082/index51.html#post5003099)

Hydro sample was cool and adjusted to 1.017 FG. Smelled amazing, lots of Amarillo, Centennial, and Columbus going on. Taste was a bit peach fruity, some grapefruit citrus, and a good oomph of dankness. Heady it is not, but it is one tasty brew.

FG was high, attributing that to the extract and the 152F mash temp. Adjusted down to 149/150F would probably bring it down those few extra points. I did not taste any Pearl malt off the bat, but who knows what we'll lose hop-wise and gain malt-wise during the following 5 day dry-hop and 3 week bottle conditioning.

Another 6oz of hops went into the primary today for the dry hop. Will report back in about 4 weeks after I get my first taste of the finished product.
 
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The video looks like when they were at the pub before Hurricane Irene took them out. The system he is using in the video is a lot different than what he is using now. They made many different beers when they were at the pub so who knows what beer they are making in the video...
True, they did make a lot more beers before the storm. I'd ask if he still uses dextrose after you see the video.
 

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What type of procedure are people using for the dry hop on this? I typically start in a glass carboy, and move to corny keg, and dry hop there, then rack again to another keg after dry hop is done for serving.

Wondering at what points to rack between kegs. Should I be looking at racking once primary fermentation is complete, and then dry hopping? From reading this thread it looks like some are dry hoping in the same vessel as primary. If it does not produce any off flavours, seems like it would save a transfer.
 

mjap52

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Whoo! Getting some Conan in the next couple weeks!! Not to mention a 4 pack of Heady!!!
 

Feurhund

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Gentlemen,

I have two starters from a Yeast cake off my friends Conan culture going and will make three beers Sunday from one mash, three separate boils.

DIPA heady inspired (might call it "Footy Bottoms")
Black IPA more focus on pine and citrus and cold steep carafa added at flame out.
Nelson Sauvin pale ale

My question is in the hopshot for the DIPA the 10mls at 90min will be like 80+ IBUs. Are you that have done it not finding this overly bitter? In comparison to other DIPAs of course. Thanks.
 
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My question is in the hopshot for the DIPA the 10mls at 90min will be like 80+ IBUs. Are you that have done it not finding this overly bitter? In comparison to other DIPAs of course. Thanks.
Nope. The FW of Hop Shot seems to lend a mild bitterness. It's there, but it won't take the enamel off your teeth or anything.
 

Feurhund

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Quick follow up: since I am doing a split batch I can't do a full FWH while filling the kettle as I have to complete the sparge and then mix runnings to get the proper gravitys.

I could add the hopshots once the DIPA portion is in the kettle and leave the whole thing at 168F or so for a few minutes before adding heat. Do you think this will work the same?
 
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Gentlemen,

I have two starters from a Yeast cake off my friends Conan culture going and will make three beers Sunday from one mash, three separate boils.

DIPA heady inspired (might call it "Footy Bottoms")
Black IPA more focus on pine and citrus and cold steep carafa added at flame out.
Nelson Sauvin pale ale

My question is in the hopshot for the DIPA the 10mls at 90min will be like 80+ IBUs. Are you that have done it not finding this overly bitter? In comparison to other DIPAs of course. Thanks.
I have tried 60-100 I bus from extract and even 100 might be too little. Its a very fwh type bitterness without actually doing fwh. I would imagine some part of the extraction process messed with the polyphenols to make it taste less bitter.
 

EyePeeA

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When the hop extract was created by the supplier, most of the harsh tannins/polyphenols were eliminated during processing. That is why you're getting less harshness. I've always heard that for best results you really need to add hop extract to a full rolling boil. I'm not sure why that is on a chemical level, but it's supposed to be more effective.
 
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theveganbrewer

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When the hop extract was created by the supplier, most of the harsh tannins/polyphenols were eliminated during processing. That is why you're getting less harshness. I've always heard that for best results you really need to add hop extract to a full rolling boil. I'm not sure why that is on a chemical level, but it's supposed to be more effective.
That makes sense, I definitely get that FWH perception from them. I'd say the rolling boil thing is meant as to avoid the hot break, which would take and drop out even more tannins and polyphenols leaving less bitterness. It's definitely solid advice, there are studies that show it happens. I have done 2 or 3 recipes with 100 IBUs from hopshot, added at rolling boil after the hot break, and they were borderline too weak on bitterness.
 

EyePeeA

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That makes sense, I definitely get that FWH perception from them. I'd say the rolling boil thing is meant as to avoid the hot break, which would take and drop out even more tannins and polyphenols leaving less bitterness.
I wouldn't confuse FWH perception with simply not having a harsh bitterness. It's highly doubtful that hop extract is made using FWH.

But adding your bittering hops to boiling wort helps the brewer to establish a good hot break and avoid a thick foamy sludge. This is key to avoiding that harsh bitterness since adding hops to a rolling boil makes it easier for the harsh polyphenols to bind with the wort proteins and drop out of solution.

I don't use hop extract a lot, but when using pellet hops, I tend to boil the wort for awhile before adding my bittering hops in order to guarantee a strong hot break. This process also helps immensely with better clarity.

Check it out: http://byo.com/pilsner/item/305-brewing-science-understanding-polyphenols
 
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theveganbrewer

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I wouldn't confuse FWH perception with simply not having a harsh bitterness. It's highly doubtful that hop extract is made using FWH.

But you're right, adding your bittering hops to boiling wort helps the brewer to establish a vigorous hot break and avoid a thick foamy sludge. This is key to avoiding that harsh bitterness since adding hops to a rolling boil makes it easier for the harsh polyphenols to bind with the wort proteins and drop out of solution.

I don't use hop extract a lot, but when using pellet hops, I tend to boil the wort for awhile before adding my bittering hops in order to guarantee a strong hot break. This process also helps immensely with better clarity.

Check it out: http://byo.com/pilsner/item/305-brewing-science-understanding-polyphenols
That is a good read for those who haven't seen it. I wasn't saying extract was made by FWH, it's made by CO2 extraction, but that the taste is similar in the final product. I'm not sure what that CO2 extraction process does to the polyphenols in the hops. I have read about Miller, who patented CO2 hop extraction, part of the reason they do it is to extract the polyphenols, which they use to bitter their beer.

I think it was on another thread, but there was a lot of discussion about having a strong hot break and FWH for optimal removal of polyphenols. I've tried to contact hop extract companies to learn more about polyphenols and what happens to them during the extraction, but no luck. There is a way to do it, because Miller is doing it, just wonder what we get in our homebrew extracts.
 

EyePeeA

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Eh, I wouldn't say the taste is similar. FWH would almost be too smooth for a beer like Heady Topper. If you're not using hop extract, I'd say you're better off adding your pellet hops when the wort has reached a full rolling boil. You will essentially accomplish the same thing with the polyphenols and proteins binding and dropping out in an attempt to avoid a sludgy mess and create a good hot break. With pellets, you'll just be left with more mess to deal with and have more wort loss.

It's really about adding your hops during a vigorous boil that helps to limit polyphenols. FWH does something above and beyond this, which may actually be too much for a beer like Heady. It also prevents a good hot break from really ever forming in my experience. This leaves your beers cloudier in addition to having less hop bite.
 

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Sorry just to clarify are you adding hopshot once the boil starts or first wort during the runoff? Thanks.
 

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I have tried 60-100 I bus from extract and even 100 might be too little. Its a very fwh type bitterness without actually doing fwh. I would imagine some part of the extraction process messed with the polyphenols to make it taste less bitter.
given 10ML is borderline not bitter enough, has anyone kicked around hopshot AND pellets? shaun hill uses both in some recipes for the bittering add (and FWHs + co2 at multiple points a few times). perhaps the combo would hit it just right.
 

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I made a Zombie Dust clone from the recipe here in HBT with Conan yeast last week. Smells incredible, almost ready to dryhop with more Citra. Will use the built up yeast for HT clone once I hear how some of the lastest changes to the HT recipe goes.

Thanks Vegan for the yeast!
 

Coopertown

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given 10ML is borderline not bitter enough, has anyone kicked around hopshot AND pellets? shaun hill uses both in some recipes for the bittering add (and FWHs + co2 at multiple points a few times). perhaps the combo would hit it just right.
I have no idea if the Alchemist combines co2 extract and pellets for bittering, but droder's post prompted a question for me:

What have you done with/heard about the mixing of FWH and extract? Or using extract at multiple points in the boil?
 

othellomcbane

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I have no idea if the Alchemist combines co2 extract and pellets for bittering, but droder's post prompted a question for me:

What have you done with/heard about the mixing of FWH and extract? Or using extract at multiple points in the boil?
I just brewed an imperial IPA that I gave a FWH addition and extract at 60 min. No other "traditional" bittering hops. I'm not expecting it to taste very harsh — I just wanted that clean, firm bitteriness. I think it'll just end up tasting like whatever the FWH would impart with a few added IBUS of clean bitterness.
 

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Brewing this tonight
5.5 gallon batch--75% efficiency OG 1074, IBU ~119
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
14 lbs Pale Malt, Pearl (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 93.3 %
1 lbs Oats, Golden Naked (Simpsons) (10.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.7 %
1.00 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 34.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 4 11.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 13.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 17.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 9.2 IBUs
0.25 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 4.3 IBUs
1.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 7.9 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 10 4.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 11 7.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 12 6.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 13 3.4 IBUs


The 15 min additions are my whirlpool, in my research a 15 min has a similar utilization to a whirlpool starting at 185. Ill figure the dry hops out later.
 

bobbrews

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Muntons brand is not pure Pearl. It's a Pearl Malt "Blend". There's some other base malt in there.
 

whitehause

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Any new updates? I'm dryhopping mine on Sunday, heavy on Columbus, moderate Simcoe, and maybe just a hint of Centennial. Anything else anybody think I should throw in there? I have Amirillo, but I'm not getting much of that from Heady. I was thinking Nugget or Cascade,(would have to go get some) but not sure it would be worth it.
Thoughts?
 
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theveganbrewer

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Any new updates? I'm dryhopping mine on Sunday, heavy on Columbus, moderate Simcoe, and maybe just a hint of Centennial. Anything else anybody think I should throw in there? I have Amirillo, but I'm not getting much of that from Heady. I was thinking Nugget or Cascade,(would have to go get some) but not sure it would be worth it.
Thoughts?
Go for the Columbus, Simcoe and one of the others (not cascade IMO). Report back. If it's off, add 1 more of the group. Easier to add later then remove.
 

LakesideBrewing

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Anyone dry hopping this warmer than ferm temps? I ferment at 62 - 64 degrees and I'm thinking about warming it up to 70 - 72 for a few days to dry hop. Pros, cons?

Thanks,
Mike
 

g-star

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Check out the East Coast Yeast page on Facebook. Al is putting out ECY29 Northeast Ale - "a very fruity strain from an amazing DIPA in the northeast".

Sounds familiar...
 

Coff

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g-star said:
Check out the East Coast Yeast page on Facebook. Al is putting out ECY29 Northeast Ale - "a very fruity strain from an amazing DIPA in the northeast".

Sounds familiar...
Yea I saw that, and it is Conan no doubt. Earlier in this thread I posted that I was sending some Conan to a microbiologist, well it was Al I was talking about. I didn't end up sending it to him bc he said he had a can and would build it up himself. He then replied a week or so later and confirmed it was Sacchromyces Cerevisae (this was back during the lager rumors).

I didn't think he would actually start selling it, this is pretty awesome.
 
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theveganbrewer

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Anyone dry hopping this warmer than ferm temps? I ferment at 62 - 64 degrees and I'm thinking about warming it up to 70 - 72 for a few days to dry hop. Pros, cons?

Thanks,
Mike
I dryhop at room temp. Its been in the high 60s low 70s and hop aroma is insane.
 
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theveganbrewer

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Yea I saw that, and it is Conan no doubt. Earlier in this thread I posted that I was sending some Conan to a microbiologist, well it was Al I was talking about. I didn't end up sending it to him bc he said he had a can and would build it up himself. He then replied a week or so later and confirmed it was Sacchromyces Cerevisae (this was back during the lager rumors).

I didn't think he would actually start selling it, this is pretty awesome.
Wow that is cool. Time to pin this clone down! We have to figure this damn hop bill out!
 

Hoplander

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g-star said:
Check out the East Coast Yeast page on Facebook. Al is putting out ECY29 Northeast Ale - "a very fruity strain from an amazing DIPA in the northeast".

Sounds familiar...
I saw that today too. Really exciting.
 

droder1

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Check out the East Coast Yeast page on Facebook. Al is putting out ECY29 Northeast Ale - "a very fruity strain from an amazing DIPA in the northeast".

Sounds familiar...!
anyone surprised john gave him the aok? (assuming he did)
 
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