Haze Mystery / East Coast IPA type haze

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55x11

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I brewed this or very similar IPA recipe 5 times now.
Every time it came very clear, following the standard cold-crash -> gelatin -> keg (or bottle) strategy. (In fact ALL of my beers are generally very clear, with rare exception of wheat ales and of course dark beers like stouts).

But the last time this IPA came out hazy (and to my taste buds - more delicious) despite numerous clearing methods applied.

My last batch (15G one), I kept the grain bill basically the same but decided to make a few changes to hop schedule - I used hopshot for 90min addition to provide all the bitterness - in the past it was more complex schedule that involved Amarillo, Centennial, Magnum at 90 and 60min - which made little sense to me.

I also moved all late additions (like 30min additions) to flameout (to preserve most hop aroma) - hops that included Centennial, Simcoe and Amarillo. I split the 15G batch into three separate 5G batches, and used belgian yeast on one of the batches, and San Diego Superyeast on two others, as well as different dry hops (Hallertau Blanc and Centennial in one batch, Amarillo and Simcoe in another, Citra and Centennial in third).

All three batches were cold-crashed, gelatined (one of them was gelatined twice - once in carboy, once in keg, another one gelatined in carboy and then bio-fined in keg). They were cold-conditioned for 2 weeks now in kegs. Still hazy.

Because I used different dry-hopping procedures, I don't think dry hops are an issue. I suspect it's either hop-shot oils or late hop additions somehow strongly interacting with yeast to produce the haze?

So is it the hop-shot interactions, or perhaps moving hops to flameout that creates this East Coast IPA type haze that cannot be cleared?
Below is my basic recipe highlights and photos of the clear IPA (previous batch) and this current "East Coasty", hazy IPA.

Any ideas? By the way, I prefer the aroma/taste of this hazy IPA, but I do miss the clarity of the usual IPAs I brew.

US 2-row 87.5%
Cara-Pils 5%
Crystal 10L 5%
Caravienne 2.5%
Mash in at 148F

Hop schedule:
Hop-shot 90min (~80 IBU)
flame-out: 1.5 oz Cent., 1.5 oz Simcoe, 2 oz Amarillo (for 15G batch).

IMG_3158.JPG


IMG_4575.JPG
 

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55x11

55x11

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I would speculate that moving the kettle hops to later in the boil limited the time for hops polyphenols to bind with wort proteins and drop out in the break.

Interesting & Related Articles:

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/02/hop-stand-vs-20-minute-boil-addition-exbeeriment-results/

https://byo.com/bock/item/305-brewing-science-understanding-polyphenols

thanks! I think you may be right, I need to research it some more - and I do seem to remember skimming that brulosophy experiment article a few weeks ago.

So I guess there is a big difference between flameout/hopstand additions and dry hopping. But I do wonder why I never saw this haze before with flameout additions. Is this really where NorthEast IPAs get their haze?

For the record: I often have flameout additions and in this recipe I simply moved all 30 min additions to 0 min, but there were always 0 min additions there.
 

Callacave

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So many misconceptions with the so called NE IPA.

The goal was never to make a hazy beer. It just came out that way.

Whirlpool hops and a huge dry hop will give you that. Yeast strain can also influence it. Forget fining/cold crashing.

Also, at least a 1:1 ratio chloride to sulfate. Leaning more on the chloride side will help to give you the mouthfeel that everybody seems to forget is half of the appeal of a NE IPA, and pH is important.

The best example of a "NE IPA" is from Hill Farmstead. Shaun basically started this trend along with Alchemist. His goal isn't "haze". It's to produce a soft and pillowy mouthfeel, low bitterness with lots of aroma and flavor, and no rough edges. Extremely balanced and drinkable.
 
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55x11

55x11

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So many misconceptions with the so called NE IPA.

The goal was never to make a hazy beer. It just came out that way.

Whirlpool hops and a huge dry hop will give you that. Yeast strain can also influence it. Forget fining/cold crashing.

Also, at least a 1:1 ratio chloride to sulfate. Leaning more on the chloride side will help to give you the mouthfeel that everybody seems to forget is half of the appeal of a NE IPA, and pH is important.

The best example of a "NE IPA" is from Hill Farmstead. Shaun basically started this trend along with Alchemist. His goal isn't "haze". It's to produce a soft and pillowy mouthfeel, low bitterness with lots of aroma and flavor, and no rough edges. Extremely balanced and drinkable.

Except nobody said the goal of NE IPA was to produce hazy beer.

So no misconceptions here. It was always clear to me (pun intended) that the haze was a byproduct, not the goal. (Who would want to make a hazy beer on purpose?).

But having stumbled - by accident - onto NorthEast IPA, and not just in terms of haze, but also in terms of mouthfeel - I was curious about which process change created it. I tend to like it - it lowers "in your face" sharp bitterness of WestCoast IPAs, and provides a more balanced, hoppy aroma while still being very dry, hop-forward beer (I don't like malt-forward IPAs).

I used similar dryhop as in previous 5 reincarnation of this recipe. Same water. Same yeast strain (San Diego Superyeast). It seems like moving most mid-boil hop additions to flameout produces this, which to me is fascinating. It's a fairly minor modification of recipe with dramatic effect on mouthfeel, taste - as well as obvious appearance. I always had some flameout hops, and large dry hop and it was very different from this try. So that's definitely not as simple as that.
 

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Except nobody said the goal of NE IPA was to produce hazy beer.

So no misconceptions here. It was always clear to me (pun intended) that the haze was a byproduct, not the goal. (Who would want to make a hazy beer on purpose?).

But having stumbled - by accident - onto NorthEast IPA, and not just in terms of haze, but also in terms of mouthfeel - I was curious about which process change created it. I tend to like it - it lowers "in your face" sharp bitterness of WestCoast IPAs, and provides a more balanced, hoppy aroma while still being very dry, hop-forward beer (I don't like malt-forward IPAs).

I used similar dryhop as in previous 5 reincarnation of this recipe. Same water. Same yeast strain (San Diego Superyeast). It seems like moving most mid-boil hop additions to flameout produces this, which to me is fascinating. It's a fairly minor modification of recipe with dramatic effect on mouthfeel, taste - as well as obvious appearance. I always had some flameout hops, and large dry hop and it was very different from this try. So that's definitely not as simple as that.

Yes, it seems like you've answered your own questions. Late hopping/whirlpooling combined with dry hopping will definitely steer you in the right direction.

Hill Farmstead Edward finishes around 1.014-15 I believe? Far from dry, but the impression in mouthfeel is substantial, but dissipates from the tongue, giving it that pillowy soft mouthfeel. It's not sweet like some people misconstrue a slightly higher final gravity to be, but it definitely contributes to the mouthfeel. There's a really good thread about all of this on here.

There are so many things that go into a good NEIPA, and it's nice to see someone asking what goes into it. I didn't mean to direct those misconceptions your way, but I've seen so many focus on the "haze" that they overlook the things that are really making it a unique and wonderful "style", if that's what they want to call it.

I appreciate the beauty of a crystal clear beer as well as the glow of a hazy one. Too many people on here have been huffing and puffing over what is better, and in the end it's really just what tastes great.
 
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55x11

55x11

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Yes, it seems like you've answered your own questions. Late hopping/whirlpooling combined with dry hopping will definitely steer you in the right direction.

Hill Farmstead Edward finishes around 1.014-15 I believe? Far from dry, but the impression in mouthfeel is substantial, but dissipates from the tongue, giving it that pillowy soft mouthfeel. It's not sweet like some people misconstrue a slightly higher final gravity to be, but it definitely contributes to the mouthfeel. There's a really good thread about all of this on here.

There are so many things that go into a good NEIPA, and it's nice to see someone asking what goes into it. I didn't mean to direct those misconceptions your way, but I've seen so many focus on the "haze" that they overlook the things that are really making it a unique and wonderful "style", if that's what they want to call it.

I appreciate the beauty of a crystal clear beer as well as the glow of a hazy one. Too many people on here have been huffing and puffing over what is better, and in the end it's really just what tastes great.

I always wondered about NE IPA - and I never had Hill Farmstead but had many other NE IPAs (my family lives in Boston so I spend ~2-3 weeks every year there). It's a different branch of IPA for sure, contrary to West Coast IPA that I am so used to, living in San Diego.

I really don't mind the haze - I appreciate beer mostly for the taste/aroma, even though visual cues can affect it too, obviously. I just have never seen a clear explanation of the difference between West and East coast IPAs, never mind the haze, what is the minimal amount of procedure you need to change to turn West Coast IPA into East Coast IPA?

Having said that, 1.015 for an IPA - seriously? I need to taste it, obviously, but it goes against everything I believe in - and everything many people believe in - IPAs must be bone dry to accentuate the hops and not dilute it with sweetness or maltiness. The IPA I described finished at 1.003-1.004 or so.
 

Callacave

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I always wondered about NE IPA - and I never had Hill Farmstead but had many other NE IPAs (my family lives in Boston so I spend ~2-3 weeks every year there). It's a different branch of IPA for sure, contrary to West Coast IPA that I am so used to, living in San Diego.

I really don't mind the haze - I appreciate beer mostly for the taste/aroma, even though visual cues can affect it too, obviously. I just have never seen a clear explanation of the difference between West and East coast IPAs, never mind the haze, what is the minimal amount of procedure you need to change to turn West Coast IPA into East Coast IPA?

Having said that, 1.015 for an IPA - seriously? I need to taste it, obviously, but it goes against everything I believe in - and everything many people believe in - IPAs must be bone dry to accentuate the hops and not dilute it with sweetness or maltiness. The IPA I described finished at 1.003-1.004 or so.

It's funny how back in the day when people thought of an East Coast IPA, it was malty, English, sweeter. Now it's more of a hybrid of the West Coast style where the malt and sweetness is greatly reduced, but the body is still there.

Edward is actually his Pale, but we know Pale and IPA are interchangeable and cross the lines nowadays. Don't be afraid of a higher FG. It's not going to bring you sweetness, just body. If you want sweetness, use crystal malts. I always see people getting higher gravity confused with sweetness, but it's more to do with how full or dry the beer is.

Next time you're here to visit family you really need to go up to HF. Don't build up your expectations from the hype around it. We've all been spoiled with amazing hoppy ales across the country now, and not much is going to impress or blow us away anymore. Now it comes down to the subtleties, and that's where I feel HF has it in spades. Just elegant beers all around.

One of my favorite beers from him is his Porter, Everett. Hopefully you'll be lucky enough to get some. Too me it drinks more like a Stout, but he has all the flavors and mouthfeel dialed in perfectly. Just enough roast/chocolate, and a full, creamy body. It finishes at 1.030 I think? And it's awesome.

Another style that he's amazing at are his farmhouse/saisons. They're not like your typical Saison that most people are used to. They're dry, tart, and have this amazing fruitiness to them. He barrel ages a lot of them.

Damn, I'm making myself thirsty talking about all of this!! We're actually heading up there next weekend. Can't wait to go.
 
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55x11

55x11

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I brewed this or very similar IPA recipe 5 times now.
Every time it came very clear, following the standard cold-crash -> gelatin -> keg (or bottle) strategy. (In fact ALL of my beers are generally very clear, with rare exception of wheat ales and of course dark beers like stouts).

But the last time this IPA came out hazy (and to my taste buds - more delicious) despite numerous clearing methods applied.

My last batch (15G one), I kept the grain bill basically the same but decided to make a few changes to hop schedule - I used hopshot for 90min addition to provide all the bitterness - in the past it was more complex schedule that involved Amarillo, Centennial, Magnum at 90 and 60min - which made little sense to me.

I also moved all late additions (like 30min additions) to flameout (to preserve most hop aroma) - hops that included Centennial, Simcoe and Amarillo. I split the 15G batch into three separate 5G batches, and used belgian yeast on one of the batches, and San Diego Superyeast on two others, as well as different dry hops (Hallertau Blanc and Centennial in one batch, Amarillo and Simcoe in another, Citra and Centennial in third).

All three batches were cold-crashed, gelatined (one of them was gelatined twice - once in carboy, once in keg, another one gelatined in carboy and then bio-fined in keg). They were cold-conditioned for 2 weeks now in kegs. Still hazy.

Because I used different dry-hopping procedures, I don't think dry hops are an issue. I suspect it's either hop-shot oils or late hop additions somehow strongly interacting with yeast to produce the haze?

So is it the hop-shot interactions, or perhaps moving hops to flameout that creates this East Coast IPA type haze that cannot be cleared?
Below is my basic recipe highlights and photos of the clear IPA (previous batch) and this current "East Coasty", hazy IPA.

Any ideas? By the way, I prefer the aroma/taste of this hazy IPA, but I do miss the clarity of the usual IPAs I brew.

US 2-row 87.5%
Cara-Pils 5%
Crystal 10L 5%
Caravienne 2.5%
Mash in at 148F

Hop schedule:
Hop-shot 90min (~80 IBU)
flame-out: 1.5 oz Cent., 1.5 oz Simcoe, 2 oz Amarillo (for 15G batch).

So to answer my own question - this IPA cleared after ~6 weeks in the keg.
Actually both versions - belgian IPA and California yeast IPA cleared, with very different dry hop additions.
Beer now (clear) - same batch as the beer before (cloudy):

IMG_1630.JPG


IMG_4575-2.JPG
 

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