Having an astringency problem, Help

[redman67]

Ive made 5 AG batches and have an astringency problem
I have an electric HERMS system and recirculate for most of of the mash
I check mash PH but only with the strips (not much info there) and it is in the range
Ward lab results are
Cal. 3.2
Mg 1.4
sodium 39
cloride 35
Bicarbonate 40

I use 5.2 in mash
After mash I recirculate to 169 (13 Min.) and hold for 10 min.
I follow beersmith directions as far as sparge volumes and fly sparge around an hour

Im not sure what to do any help would be great Thanks in advance

 

[kanzimonson]

Do you experience this in a lot of different styles?

 

[Yooper]

Well, as was already asked is this in every beer?

When you fly sparge, do you check the SG of the runnings at the end? Or the pH?

Why the 5.2 stabilizer? What happens when you don't use it?

What is the astringency like? Dry? Puckering? Harsh? Is it a grain astringency (tannins) or more of a hops harshness?

I'm not trying to play 20 questions so I'm sorry about the interrogation! I'm just trying to picture your set up in my mind and what's going on.

 

[redman67]

Thats quite alright

I have made a stout a red ale an ipa and pale ale and its apparent in all but the Red ale

I dont usually check gravity untill I collect all the runnings and am consistantly overshooting my final gravity, but only by a few points Eff. high 80's

I dont know why I use the 5.2 I thought it was the thing to do

 

[redman67]

The beers are drying as if you need a drink of water afterwords
They have been sampled warm and flat if it makes a difference

 

[Yooper]

The beers are drying as if you need a drink of water afterwords
They have been sampled warm and flat if it makes a difference

That definitely sounds like tannin extraction then.

How's your grain crush? What temps are you sparging at? Did you check the pH of the sparge? You said you don't check the SG of the runnings out of the MLT at the end? Remember you want to stop sparging when your runnings are 1.010.

I'm wondering if you've got some oversparging or a too-high pH in the sparge.

 

[Chad]

As Yooper pointed out, if you are getting puckery, bad-iced-tea astringency, that's probably tannin extraction. Sparging with water that is too hot *can* cause that, but the most likely culprit is your pH.

One thing to consider is when/where you are adding your 5.2 buffer or salts. If they are going into the mash or strike water you might be sparging with untreated water that raises the pH and starts to extract tannins. In general, it's a better idea to treat your total volume of water if you are using buffers or salts. That way your pH doesn't change (much) during the sparge. You might also consider 1-2% Acidulated malt in your grist to drop the mash pH. Use a spreadsheet like EZ Water Calculator to get you in the ballpark. Of course, that means looking up your local annual water quality report to determine your baseline, but those are mostly online these days and easy enough to search.

You might also try cutting your tap water with distilled or RO (reverse osmosis) water and rebuilding the ion profile as detailed in the Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

 

[redman67]

If I stop at 1.010 then I just top off with tap water to reach preboil volume?

 

[PurdyGood]

My water is very hard and basic, so it is well-suited to make GREAT stouts and porters. When I want to do an amber or lighter beer, I do what the above poster suggested: I cut my water with RO water, about 50/50. My pale ales, etc are turning out MUCH better, and I am making my best beer yet. I had a similar astringency problem, and this was the easy fix. I also single batch sparge and keep my recipes simple, as per BierMuncher's suggestion.

 

[Yooper]

If I stop at 1.010 then I just top off with tap water to reach preboil volume?

Ideally, that wouldn't happen, but it could in a small grain bill. Yes, topping up with water and giving up a few efficiency points would improve the beer rather than over sparging. It does sound like a pH issue/water issue, but your water isn't very alkaline. As Chad mentioned, 1-2% acidulated malt may help, or you can try acidifying your sparge water with some lactic acid.

 

[Yooper]

My water is very hard and basic, so it is well-suited to make GREAT stouts and porters. When I want to do an amber or lighter beer, I do what the above poster suggested: I cut my water with RO water, about 50/50. My pale ales, etc are turning out MUCH better, and I am making my best beer yet. I had a similar astringency problem, and this was the easy fix. I also single batch sparge and keep my recipes simple, as per BierMuncher's suggestion.

My water has a bicarbonate level of 228 ppm! I found that I had to cut my water with RO as well, and add a wee bit of calcium chloride and/or gypsum to get a better flavor in my beer.

I have a thought! If the problem is oversparging, one fix could be trying a batch sparge just one time. That can also help to fix any minor pH issues in the sparge because you're adding all the water at once, and draining it. If that fixes the problem, then you know it's oversparging or pH during a fly sparge.

 

[mabrungard]

Forget the 5.2 stuff. It doesn't work the way a mash needs it too and it adds a bunch of sodium to the water. What you percieve as astringency may be excessive sodium which can present a harshness to the beer.

You can learn more about brewing water and its adjustment using Bru'n Water. Download it from the link in my signature line.

Enjoy.

 

[redman67]

Thank you all for your help
I will now moniter the runnings and look into water adjustments

 

[Patirck]

Certainly mashing too hot *can* cause tannin extraction.

I had this problem as well and once I got a handle on my water it went away. I found that while my tap water tasted fine, it was very high ph. I started using a home cheapo water filter to remove a lot of the chlorine and it made the beer taste much better. I then started customizing water for the style and it makes a huge difference. I usually use about 2/3 filtered tap water and 1/3 RO water. I then add salts if needed for the style.

I would get the water filter and try 100% filtered water and see how things come out. Then try doing the 2/3 or 1/2 filtered tap versus RO water and see the difference.