have you tried fermenting and serving from the same keg without transferring?

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have you tried fermenting and serving from the same keg without transferring?


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ba-brewer

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I posted awhile back about an experiment I did with a german pilsner left on yeast. It has been 200day so something like 6.5months and it is still tasting good. I dont detect any off flavors or aromas. It has a slight haze but that is fairly common with many of beers so I dont think it has anything to do with the beer sitting on the yeast.

The other half which I did to my normal process was kicked a couple months back. I did a few side by side tasting while I had it on tap but could not detect anything comparing the two. Initially I thought I oxidized the normal process half but I might have just sample before it was done maturing as it tasted fine when I had it on tap.

This is longer than I normally let beer lager so I feel good about leaving the beer on the yeast without issue and will do it again in the future. I will finish this keg when I kick my current lager.
 

McMullan

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I posted awhile back about an experiment I did with a german pilsner left on yeast. It has been 200day so something like 6.5months and it is still tasting good. I dont detect any off flavors or aromas. It has a slight haze but that is fairly common with many of beers so I dont think it has anything to do with the beer sitting on the yeast.

The other half which I did to my normal process was kicked a couple months back. I did a few side by side tasting while I had it on tap but could not detect anything comparing the two. Initially I thought I oxidized the normal process half but I might have just sample before it was done maturing as it tasted fine when I had it on tap.

This is longer than I normally let beer lager so I feel good about leaving the beer on the yeast without issue and will do it again in the future. I will finish this keg when I kick my current lager.
Interesting no detectible off flavours have appeared after this period of time, especially in a lager. I guess low temperature helps a lot here. I think in many cases, if not most, the beer is unlikely to clear fully. I observe what @DuncB describes at #97. I think what's possibly going on is residual metabolic activity in the yeast slurry produces gas pockets that grow until they erupt out and up through the beer, pulling trub back into suspension so the beer struggles to clear. I'm not sure about lagers (just getting interested in brewing them), but for ales my personal preference is for crystal clear beer, which I perceive as better quality. I might have a lower threshold to yeast in suspension. I always taste my samples regardless from the stage and I find my beers invariably taste crap initially and until the beer has gone bright.
 
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McMullan

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On topic of beer clearing and removing the yeast, my observation of my fermentasaurus is that with yeast in the collection bottle at the bottom, even when the ferment is over there still seems to be some activity from the yeast. This is seen as small bubble ring on surface ( fermenter is at 12 celsius ), beer doesn't clear that well. Once I drop that yeast out so there is very little left, ( ie just suspended to settle ) final clearing can occur spontaneously.
This is what I observe, too. I've found following the traditional practice of getting beer off yeast as soon as possible, once primary fermentation is complete, and into a secondary vessel, before packaging, actually produces much clearer beer in less time. Beer I personally perceive as higher quality and more stable. Professional brewers continue to use secondary vessels generally; e.g., bright tanks. Home brewers who can't be bothered encourage others not to bother using a secondary, because, in their opinion, according to their acceptance level, that is, it isn't necessary. Then a majority potentially follows a questionable practice. What I found quite ironic was when conical FVs entered the home brew market and many of those in denial about secondary vessels got all orgasmic and weak at the knees, drooling over shiny conicals. A dual purpose FV designed for secondary vessel application by transferring the yeast from under the beer.

By the way, I think you might be interested in one of these cask floats. They are all the same size, just colour coded for cask size (tube length). They work great in sankey kegs. Any kegs, in fact. Don't bother with the optional tubing they supply. Source your own lighter (6mm ID x 1.5mm wall) tubing, which is less likely to jam on the keg wall.
 

moreb33rplz

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My experience is different, my beers that I ferment/serve in the same keg are crystal clear after some amount of aging - maybe two months from brew day on average. They only get clearer as time goes on. I use whirlfoc and store cold but no fining agent

Dry hopped beers are the exception, they usually stay hazy to some degree, though I've also had some heavily dry hopped.beers eventually drop clear
 

ba-brewer

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Interesting no detectible off flavours have appeared after this period of time, especially in a lager. I guess low temperature helps a lot here. I think in many cases, if not most, the beer is unlikely to clear fully. I observe what @DuncB describes at #97. I think what's possibly going on is residual metabolic activity in the yeast slurry produces gas pockets that grow until they erupt out and up through the beer, pulling trub back into suspension so the beer struggles to clear. I'm not sure about lagers (just getting interested in brewing them), but for ales my personal preference is for crystal clear beer, which I perceive as better quality. I might have a lower threshold to yeast in suspension. I always taste my samples regardless from the stage and I find my beers invariably taste crap initially and until the beer has gone bright.
As I said before I dont think the haze in this beer is related to the yeast, I believe it is a protein haze. For sure less than a hop haze. Once I tap the keg I will see if I can capture how it looks, for many they might considered it clear but I can see it is not quite there.

One thing I have noticed with some of my beers is the beer in the keg may have a slight haze like this one but the beer from the same batch in a jar of saved yeast slurry will be crystal clear. Not sure if the larger amount of yeast helps pull down the straggler or possibly no pressure.

My normal practice is get the beer off of the yeast as soon as possible(~5%ABV in 8 to 10days), but I don't do a secondary I just let it settle in the kegs. A half pint of murky beer on first pour and just a thin layer on the bottom of the keg when kicked.
 

McMullan

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As I said before I dont think the haze in this beer is related to the yeast, I believe it is a protein haze. For sure less than a hop haze. Once I tap the keg I will see if I can capture how it looks, for many they might considered it clear but I can see it is not quite there.

One thing I have noticed with some of my beers is the beer in the keg may have a slight haze like this one but the beer from the same batch in a jar of saved yeast slurry will be crystal clear. Not sure if the larger amount of yeast helps pull down the straggler or possibly no pressure.

My normal practice is get the beer off of the yeast as soon as possible(~5%ABV in 8 to 10days), but I don't do a secondary I just let it settle in the kegs. A half pint of murky beer on first pour and just a thin layer on the bottom of the keg when kicked.
It’s possible with good practices and the right yeast strain choice to get perfectly good results without a secondary. I’m not going to argue against that. I’ll skip a secondary myself, when I know I can get away with it. I minimise kettle trub transferring into the FV these days. I know there’s nothing negative about it, fermentation wise, but, again, with some yeast strains, enough kettle trub just means it’s likely to get resuspended every time the yeast cake burps therefore better to use a secondary. Sometimes trubby beers with some yeast strains seem to clear really well. Presumably the suspended solids act as ‘flocculation nuclei’ or something otherwise interacting, increasing the mass of flocculating yeast cells to speed up the gravity driven process?

My harvested yeast generally seem to clear sooner that kegged beers they came from too, but remember, at least in my case anyway, they are stored at a much cooling temperate, in a much smaller vessel at very high population density, where most active cells are likely secreting chemical signals promoting flocculation behaviour. I observe beers (behaviour of novel yeast strains) through a transparent FV (Better Bottle) and they always clear from the top gradually moving down over time; overnight to a few days and up several days, depending on the yeast strain. It sounds like you’re pushing beer from the bottom of the keg, up through a conventional liquid-out dip tube? I bet if you used a floating dip tube the beer pulls clearer much sooner.
 
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ba-brewer

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Yes, I draw from the bottom. I do have a few of the top draw type devices but have not used them much. For me a beer going from a slight haze to clearer in more desirable then the other way around incase I drank past the clearing level. I have a keg about to kick, I might do another leave the beer on yeast test with the top draw to see how things go.

I have always fermented trub free wort, make for easier guestimating of yeast content of the slurry for repitching.

Sometime in the future I have another thing to try. I bought a lid with a liquid out post so I can put the top draw on that one for serving beer and use the original bottom draw dip tub to draw off yeast for repitching.
 
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I have been brewing with this method for 5 batches. ALL were great. I brew extract only with steep grains. I use a yeast that will drop out after fermentation. Normally go 3 weeks at the fermentation temps then to cold for a week. Ferment under low pressure 5 to 10psi. When in cold, increase to 20 psi. Drop to 5 when ready to serve. I use the clear-beer float filter, much better then the 'ball' floats, but they do work OK. I trying one with a filter in an Octfest . Never used secondly for 10 years. Have 2 in the conditioning phase in 2.5g kegs.
I have not tried to dry hop yet. Will do that to the next PA or IPA I brew.

The issue I have is , no bottles of the beer to take along when camping etc. Will try to fill a PET bottle from the batches coming due next week.
 

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Interesting no detectible off flavours have appeared after this period of time, especially in a lager. I guess low temperature helps a lot here. I think in many cases, if not most, the beer is unlikely to clear fully. I observe what @DuncB describes at #97. I think what's possibly going on is residual metabolic activity in the yeast slurry produces gas pockets that grow until they erupt out and up through the beer, pulling trub back into suspension so the beer struggles to clear. I'm not sure about lagers (just getting interested in brewing them), but for ales my personal preference is for crystal clear beer, which I perceive as better quality. I might have a lower threshold to yeast in suspension. I always taste my samples regardless from the stage and I find my beers invariably taste crap initially and until the beer has gone bright.
When my beer pipeline is working well and I have one or two kegs waiting for room in the keggerater and they sit in the beer fridge at 34* f for a month or so, they are brite clear and clear up after moving quickly. Also, with a floating diptube you can also use gelatin or other fining agents easily. :mug:
 

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Professional brewers continue to use secondary vessels generally; e.g., bright tanks. Home brewers who can't be bothered encourage others not to bother using a secondary, because, in their opinion, according to their acceptance level, that is, it isn't necessary.
What I hear about doing secondarys most on this site is the risk of infection and oxidation outweighs the possible benefit of getting it off the yeast and clearing. For professional brewers this is less of an issue because it can be done in a totally closed Ox free environment. Of course you can use CO2, or even fermentation produced gases to push the beer to a secondary/serving keg, but this is the "without transferring" thread. :cool:
 

McMullan

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What I hear about doing secondarys most on this site is the risk of infection and oxidation outweighs the possible benefit of getting it off the yeast and clearing. For professional brewers this is less of an issue because it can be done in a totally closed Ox free environment. Of course you can use CO2, or even fermentation produced gases to push the beer to a secondary/serving keg, but this is the "without transferring" thread. :cool:
And it usually helps to add a little guiding context to explain the reasoning behind considering confusing practices that seem to go against established practices considered 'best practice'.
 
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My first beer done fully in a single keg all they way through using a floating dip tube is now cooled and carbed. The color, aroma and flavor of this beer seems to be spot on. It is a cream ale where we did our own cereal mash with cracked corn. It's hazy. Only been in the keezer for a week. I expect it to clear more, but not sure how much it will.
 

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Managed to autolyze a batch of mead once due to poor decisions. Was ~12% abv sitting on yeast cake post fermentation around 80 F for a couple weeks. Haven't autolyzed anything lower abv or colder.
 
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