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bransona

bransona

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Hi, all. I've been brewing for a few years now, and one common character of my beers has been a general dullness. Not bad or off flavors, just a lack of strong, delicious flavors that I find in commercial brews. I've tweaked a million things and had very little change, from grains to hops to yeast to temps to etc. I had always been told my water was a good start to brew with with no additions.

Well, I ran a recent water report through Bru'n water (because I think I need to finally learn some chemistry), and HOLY CRAP was I way over my expected pH. Bru'n water estimated my typical pale brew mash pH to only be reaching 5.8-6.0. Yikes.

Based on the spreadsheet, I added enough phosphoric acid to hit the 5.41-5.44 area in my first-ever full-volume mash. The beer is now crashing with gelatin and will be kegged tonight, but I'm super anxious.

What did I really change here? What difference will the mash pH make? I hear a lot of talk about it and don't know what to expect! If it goes well, my next step will likely be a sulfate addition since my water has basically no profile beyond alkalinity.
 
It wasnt until i got an RO system and started tweaking the water chemistry to suit my specific beer styles and measuring ph that my beers started becoming more brewery quality imo. Im sure martin will give you a good explanation on mash ph but ive read it helps extract better in the 5.2 to 5.4 range. Ive been brewing for 11 years and the ro system was the best investment ive ever made last year. I liked my beer okish before but it was always lacking something. The water fixed it. You could try using ro water from the grocery store to see if that changes things for you
 
schoellhorn82 said:
It wasnt until i got an RO system and started tweaking the water chemistry to suit my specific beer styles and measuring ph that my beers started becoming more brewery quality imo. Im sure martin will give you a good explanation on mash ph but ive read it helps extract better in the 5.2 to 5.4 range. Ive been brewing for 11 years and the ro system was the best investment ive ever made last year. I liked my beer okish before but it was always lacking something. The water fixed it. You could try using ro water from the grocery store to see if that changes things for you
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I hope to go RO one day, but as a new post grad working in music, money is tight. Lol. My town's water really is good for brewing---very low salts in general, allowing for flexibility (according to local breweries that use the town water, and according to Ward Labs)---it's just more alkaline than I realized before. I hadn't been managing pH at all, and don't have the money for a pH meter right now. I trust bru'nwater for an estimate though, so I'm happy to hear what a positive difference chemistry made in your beer!
 
I’d highly suggest you read the brew science water primer.

I’m terrible at chemistry but I was able to piece together a process after spending time reading the suggestions for water additions found in that section. AJ is the man for taking the time to put that writeup together.

A high ph can limit your yeast health and impact the the mash . Cacl and gypsum additions can really make your beers flavors pop.

It’s the little things that take a beer from good to great. Water imo is one of those things!

Get a water report or send a sample to ward for sample review. Then plug that data into a sheet like bruNwater and begin the process.

I ended up going with RO water and leaned the impact of brew salt additions. My experience suggests higher doses of cacl and gypsum dry out the beer and help the hops pop a bit more. I usually use acidulated malt for ph adjustments based on the mash profile ie ( dark vs light grains)
Then I adjust cacl and gypsum based on beer style. With little to no additions for pilsners and .5 grams gypsum and .9 grams cacl per gallon for NEIPAs.
 
Tap water can be good but remember its chalk full of other stuff too. I live in st. Louis and we have chloramine instead of chlorine which isnt easily boiled out and impacts the final product. I started using half ro half tap for my mashes and it puts me in the 5.4 range. Then i add calcium, magnesium etc to suit the style. Sparge with ro and it turns out great. Get some gallons of ro water from the grocery store. Its really cheap
 
FB_IMG_1516370331889.jpg


Ok so there's the water I'm working with
 
Super low on salts, so those are my next learning/experimenting step (starting with sulfate additions to get my ipa in order)
 
Very nice water! Once you get the pH in range, minimal additions will really make it shine. Getting the pH in range, say, 5.4 for IPAs will help with"brightness" and then some simple additions of gypsum and/or calcium chloride will be all you need to make a beer go from very good to great.
 
Yooper said:
Very nice water! Once you get the pH in range, minimal additions will really make it shine. Getting the pH in range, say, 5.4 for IPAs will help with"brightness" and then some simple additions of gypsum and/or calcium chloride will be all you need to make a beer go from very good to great.
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Thanks, Yooper--that's exciting to hear!! It sounds like I should add some salts to my next brew order :)
 
Good god thats some clean water. You may get by with just salt additions. Dont forget about cal chloride and adding small amounts of mag too.
 
Tweaking water has definitely taken my beers to the next level...although, there is still more ground for me to cover in order to get my beers on par with some of the commercial crafts guys...I think to get there I will need the ability to eliminate oxygen exposure on the cold side....I basically want no oxygen to touch the beer post pitch until it is poured into the glass.
 
Biscuits said:
Tweaking water has definitely taken my beers to the next level...although, there is still more ground for me to cover in order to get my beers on par with some of the commercial crafts guys...I think to get there I will need the ability to eliminate oxygen exposure on the cold side....I basically want no oxygen to touch the beer post pitch until it is poured into the glass.
Click to expand...
Ive personally never had issues with oxygenation post fermentation while transferring to kegs. Maybe my pallet isnt as refined. You could look into pressure fermenting in a keg and transferring to another keg with co2 pressure. My kegs are sealed and i know co2 is heavier than o2 so i may have some protective layer as im racking to my keg
 
At first taste, I can DEFINITELY tell a huge difference. Every flavor of the beer is much more pronounced, if that makes sense. There's no longer that overlying sense of "meh" hiding everything. The hops are finally decent instead of missing. HOWEVER, it totally highlighted my flaws too! Oops! I knew this batch fermented a little warm (weather swing), but holy cow, I can really taste those esters (wlp007)! I've almost got a little bubble gum going on. But hey! I figure that's actually a GOOD thing! I can fix temperatures. And for this batch, time will help those esters, right?
 
The esters will most probably dull with time, but when you are fermenting a bit warmer and you cannot help it, maybe try to balance the esters out using a tad more hops than you usually use, if the beer in question is a hoppy example. Regarding the esters, I personally love esters in beer and so, I tend to ferment for getting those esters.

Now regarding the pH: my first brews were done using water spreadsheets and they come out OK, some better than others. I then got a pH meter and once I was able to measure mash, boil and final beer pH before carbonating, I got more confidence in my process. The results are very good. I can definitely say beer has become much better now.

I also want to add, that water spreadsheets are very good to use, but when and if you will get a pH meter, you will notice differences in the numbers from the sheets and the " real " numbers when reading pH samples.
 
thehaze said:
The esters will most probably dull with time, but when you are fermenting a bit warmer and you cannot help it, maybe try to balance the esters out using a tad more hops than you usually use, if the beer in question is a hoppy example. Regarding the esters, I personally love esters in beer and so, I tend to ferment for getting those esters.

Now regarding the pH: my first brews were done using water spreadsheets and they come out OK, some better than others. I then got a pH meter and once I was able to measure mash, boil and final beer pH before carbonating, I got more confidence in my process. The results are very good. I can definitely say beer has become much better now.

I also want to add, that water spreadsheets are very good to use, but when and if you will get a pH meter, you will notice differences in the numbers from the sheets and the " real " numbers when reading pH samples.
Click to expand...
The recipe at hand is a small (almost session) SMaSH IPA with MO and Centennial. It was intended to ferment around 65-68, but suddenly it was 65° outside in January and my fermentation closet got way too warm. The hops work with the esters to some extent, but I was hoping for a slightly cleaner yeast character since 007 can be pretty aggressive with ester production. Like you said though, hoping those will calm down soon.

As for chemistry, I've got phosphoric for the pH adjustment right now, and I've found that bru'nwater is very widely trusted as accurate. The results so far speak for themselves, so when I brew this recipe again (probably this week), I intend to follow the same acidification procedure, add some salts as per yooper and other's suggestions, and hopefully keep my ferm temp in a better range.

That being said, I'm still looking forward to the time I can afford a decent pH meter.
 
I never meant to imply that water spreadsheets are not accurate or fairly accurate for those of us, without a pH meter. I just noticed that the actual mash pH and the one predicted in Bru'nWater were different ( not by much ), with the actual one being a tad higher than the one predicted. But this is normal, as there are so many factors that play into the whole pH bussiness, like the actual acidity of the particular grains you are using and how they will affect your mash. These things are predicted at a general level in spreadsheets, but they are very accurate and will help you design better beers. I was simply underlining the fact that a pH meter is the next step, in taking even more control over the process.
 
thehaze said:
I never meant to imply that water spreadsheets are not accurate or fairly accurate for those of us, without a pH meter. I just noticed that the actual mash pH and the one predicted in Bru'nWater were different ( not by much ), with the actual one being a tad higher than the one predicted. But this is normal, as there are so many factors that play into the whole pH bussiness, like the actual acidity of the particular grains you are using and how they will affect your mash. These things are predicted at a general level in spreadsheets, but they are very accurate and will help you design better beers. I was simply underlining the fact that a pH meter is the next step, in taking even more control over the process.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice! That in mind, what sort of pH meter is worth springing for? Do the cheaper/entry-level ones work well-enough? Or am I better off saving for a good one?
 
I have read about brewers that use both cheaper and more expensive solutions and usually, you will find brewers that will vouch for each category. Granted, the cheaper ones might break easily and could possibly not be as reliable, but when they do, just replace them? The investment will be easier to cover when the price is within the wallets limits.

A more expensive one is more expensive, so that will hurt your wallet to start with. But generally speaking, they would be more reliable and also hold more time if treated properly. Keep in mind that they could also break, but I would guess the warranty would work better with the more expensive devices.

I got myself a http://www.adwainstruments.com/pock...nal-waterproof-ph-temp-pocket-testers/82-ad11 as it's made in Europe and I got a good* deal on it: 46 $ / 40 € with free shipping.

Now this is only two digits display, meaning it will only show 5.3, 5.5, etc. instead of 5.33 or 5.57, but this is not a problem. The one with 3 digits, would have been almost 80% more expensive and I decided to go with the cheaper one. If in the future, I will have the money, I will get me another. But at the moment, the one I got is just perfect.

But this is a hobby and it means differently for each and one of us. Some will probably invest more as they have the financial means and the desire to maybe take this adventure further into the commercial territory. Some of us will simply invest more as we want to brew the best beer we can, with the system and the current process. But all in all, we would still make beer and we would still drink it. If you / I want it to taste better, I believe you / I can always do more to achieve that.
 
schoellhorn82 said:
Tap water can be good but remember its chalk full of other stuff too. I live in st. Louis and we have chloramine instead of chlorine which isnt easily boiled out and impacts the final product. I started using half ro half tap for my mashes and it puts me in the 5.4 range. Then i add calcium, magnesium etc to suit the style. Sparge with ro and it turns out great. Get some gallons of ro water from the grocery store. Its really cheap
Click to expand...
Campden tablets are about a dime apiece and eliminate chloramine instantly. Pretty cheap solution.
 
Fortunately, no chloramine here to the best of my knowledge :) It looks like I may have the time to brew this afternoon if I can find gypsum/CaCl at the lhbs
 
As already mentioned, that is a pretty good water source. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't need treatment. In the case of pale beers, I'm not surprised that the mash pH prediction was near 6. ALL BEERS need acid in order to achieve a desirable pH. In the case of dark styles, the roasted grains provide that acid. But pale beers need some other form of acid.

There was a mention above that proper pH management improves extraction, but that isn't really true. A Congress mash in which extraction potential is measured, is conducted with straight distilled water and no water treatment. So no improvement in your extraction, but there are many other improvements when you achieve a proper pH...just not that one.
 
mabrungard said:
As already mentioned, that is a pretty good water source. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't need treatment. In the case of pale beers, I'm not surprised that the mash pH prediction was near 6. ALL BEERS need acid in order to achieve a desirable pH. In the case of dark styles, the roasted grains provide that acid. But pale beers need some other form of acid.

There was a mention above that proper pH management improves extraction, but that isn't really true. A Congress mash in which extraction potential is measured, is conducted with straight distilled water and no water treatment. So no improvement in your extraction, but there are many other improvements when you achieve a proper pH...just not that one.
Click to expand...
The pH adjustment made a tremendous difference already. Now I intend to hit my water with some salts and bring the profile up around the levels of IPA's or bru'nwater's Pale Hoppy (or whatever that water profile is called)
 
schoellhorn82 said:
Ive personally never had issues with oxygenation post fermentation while transferring to kegs. Maybe my pallet isnt as refined. You could look into pressure fermenting in a keg and transferring to another keg with co2 pressure. My kegs are sealed and i know co2 is heavier than o2 so i may have some protective layer as im racking to my keg
Click to expand...

I think some styles are more vulnerable to it than others, for instance NEIPA...however, beyond oxygenation, I think there are some flavor benefits from fermenting/transferring under pressure. #1 would be sealing in hop flavor and aroma. From everything I have ever read, hops are super volatile to oxygen and their flavor/aroma properties are the first to go. #2 would be yeast performance...I am quite sure the pro's are fermenting under pressure and this causes the yeast to behave in a different manner than it would when CO2 is allowed to be off-gassed freely...but I admit, I don't have a plethora of info to back this up.
 
I want to throw another idea in the ring. mabrungard and I have discussed it a while back in another thread and that's CO2 sources. Since I relocated to another part of the country every time I use CO2 to carbonate my beer flavors become muddled and head way of oxidation within a couple months. The bottles we change out can be mismanaged, steel can rust, and unpleasant compounds can find their way into the tank and then into the beer.

Since I've returned to keg/bottle conditioning I've had no issues with the same chemical off-flavor and my hop-forward flavors in still version are lively and present with carbonation. I'm just throwing this out there because if the water adjustments don't solve your issues your CO2 bottle could be another problem. I would definitely start with the water though!
 
...Or buy RO at the grocery store.
I fill 5 gallon containers for 0.39 per gallon.
For me, my brewing water is less cost per year than the annual filter replacement of an RO home system.
This calculation presumes RO water for brewing only. My tap water is fine, sans the alkalinity.
 
SEndorf said:
...Or buy RO at the grocery store.
I fill 5 gallon containers for 0.39 per gallon.
For me, my brewing water is less cost per year than the annual filter replacement of an RO home system.
This calculation presumes RO water for brewing only. My tap water is fine, sans the alkalinity.
Click to expand...
Depending on where you get RO, the water can actually be very high in some chemicals if the filters haven't been changed lately. Most of the RO fill stations tell you the last filter change date. Just food for thought for whomever is reading this thread :)
 
bransona said:
Depending on where you get RO, the water can actually be very high in some chemicals if the filters haven't been changed lately. Most of the RO fill stations tell you the last filter change date. Just food for thought for whomever is reading this thread :)
Click to expand...

Good point. I should have mentioned a TDS meter is a good investment. The store I visit posts their maintenance record.
 
xico said:
your CO2 bottle could be another problem.
Click to expand...

Ditto that thought. I've been educated on the merits of making sure that you obtain and use Beverage-grade or better CO2 for your beer. There is some oxygen in all bottled CO2, but some grades are much worse than others. Ask for how much O2 is in their gas before you buy it!!!!
 
I get my Co2 from a fire command company, so im sure it has little o2 cause the last thing they need is o2 when trying to put out a fire lol
 
Update: I picked up Gypsum and CaCl, and am ordering a wort chiller tonight! I intend to brew again ASAP and will report back once it's kegged. Hopefully this is the big difference I've been searching for!
 
MattyHBT said:
I get my Co2 from a fire command company, so im sure it has little o2 cause the last thing they need is o2 when trying to put out a fire lol
Click to expand...

Comparatively, that CO2 probably has a LOT more oxygen than you think. Beverage grade or research grade are going to be what I buy from now on.
 
mabrungard said:
Be careful. RO systems with the little filters that are included in that system are penny-wise, pound foolish. You are much better off buying a RO system that has the bigger 10" filters. They last longer and cost less.
Click to expand...
Good point. I didnt even look at the ad just forwarded it. Lesson learned before giving advice
 

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