Harsh/Lingering Bitterness & Using ALL RO Water

[agroff383]

Hey all, wondering if anyone can tell me how much RO water I would use to balance out my city tap water. A lot of the lighter color beers I make just get dominated by a harsh, lingering bitterness. Some beers it is way more pronounced and I want to change it.

I can get RO water from a vending machine and I blend it with my tap water for strike and sparge volumes. I have been mashing with RO and sparging with tap water. According to a 2008 report, my sulfate is 79ppm and my sodium is 19.5ppm and my calcium is 161ppm. I don't know if this changes over time.

I want to know why I can't do all RO water. I do all grain. I have read I need minerals. I understand the mash needs minerals to convert, how much do I need? Or does this ride on what kind of beer I am making? If I used all RO water, would my efficency suffer? Or would only the most experienced beer taster be able to tell?

I really don't want to build water if I can get it close with a combo of tap and RO water. I did a SNPA clone last weekend that I only used about 2 gallons of tap water for my sparge and 5+ gallons for the mash/sparge. I am excited to see how this came out and if I can tell if it made a difference.

I know I would need absolute info on my water but this is the closest that I could find. I am going to call the water authority to get an updated report. It seems that everyone thinks my beers are too hoppy, but they are experiencing this excessive bitterness as well. I think if I change the amount of tap water I can lower this bitterness and let the malt/hops shine!

 

[pkeeler]

What is the chloride content? You can't balance ions by diluting, but you can add salts. There are many online calculators that will help you with this.

I'd suspect your bitterness is coming from somewhere else rather than excessive sulfate to chloride ratio. Maybe post your hop schedule for a previous brew. How do you sparge and how hot is the water? If the pH of your sparge water is very high, that could also lead to astringency/bitterness.

 

[rico567]

I use nothing but RO water in my beers. We live in a rural area, and our well water is so high in dissolved calcium and iron that it's completely unsuitable for brewing.

I do AG, a fairly thin mash with a single batch sparge. I put Five Star's 5.2 pH regulator in my mash according to package directions, and I put yeast nutrient in the boil according to directions. The only time I add minerals is when called for by a recipe, e.g., I added Burton Water Salts when doing an ESB. My beers taste fine.

 

[logdrum]

My 1st brew w/ city water was harshly bitter, not in line at all with the IBUs. I switched to local spring water (@ .10/gl.) and the harshness disappeared. If I need to revert to city water, I would pre-boil & use a camden tab to get rid of both chlorine & chloramines.

-d

 

[Bobby_M]

I use nothing but RO water in my beers. We live in a rural area, and our well water is so high in dissolved calcium and iron that it's completely unsuitable for brewing.

I do AG, a fairly thin mash with a single batch sparge. I put Five Star's 5.2 pH regulator in my mash according to package directions, and I put yeast nutrient in the boil according to directions. The only time I add minerals is when called for by a recipe, e.g., I added Burton Water Salts when doing an ESB. My beers taste fine.

You really need some calcium in the mash. I've read that amylase enzyme should not even work at all without calcium.

 

[agroff383]

What is the chloride content? You can't balance ions by diluting, but you can add salts. There are many online calculators that will help you with this.

I'd suspect your bitterness is coming from somewhere else rather than excessive sulfate to chloride ratio. Maybe post your hop schedule for a previous brew. How do you sparge and how hot is the water? If the pH of your sparge water is very high, that could also lead to astringency/bitterness.

OK for example I did a Cali Common from Yooper.
My hop schedule for that beer was as follows:

ALL Northern Brewer:
.75 oz at 60
1 oz at 15
1 oz at 0

I even adjusted the bittering hops less to try to tame the bitterness to no avail. I used White Labs yeast with a 2000ml starter and fermented around 55 for 3 weeks then another 2 weeks in the keg at 38.

I batch sparge and the water usually around 170 when I dump it in the mash tun. I have been doing one big sparge and now I am going to try splitting it into two smaller ones. Also I have upped my sparge temp since then, to 185 in the pot before adding it to the mash.

I dont know the pH of the water, could I use my aquarium tester to check this? Does the pH change a whole lot during seasons or temp change in any way?

 

[agroff383]

My 1st brew w/ city water was harshly bitter, not in line at all with the IBUs. I switched to local spring water (@ .10/gl.) and the harshness disappeared. If I need to revert to city water, I would pre-boil & use a camden tab to get rid of both chlorine & chloramines.

-d

Does chorine and chloramines affect bitterness? I wouldnt mind using campden tablets if this is affecting the way my beer turns out, but pre-boiling would add a lot of time to the process, but at the same time it would be worth it.

I only taste this bitterness in lightly colored beers, but it seems worse with more hops. But I know hop bitterness and this is not it. Beers that are darker in color and use darker malts or spices, or ever specialty yeasts like Witbier yeast, this bitterness doesn't come through as much. Almost like this bitterness "loses" the battle with the stronger spices/flavors.

Also would yeast accentuate this quality of a beer? I use almost always US05 for dry yeast. I remember from past beers with Nottingham that this is not as prevalent. But, I brewed at my parents and used mostly Notty and once I moved 20 mins away to another area & water supply I started using US-05.

Back to Notty!

 

[agroff383]

You really need some calcium in the mash. I've read that amylase enzyme should not even work at all without calcium.

Bobby is this the only critical mineral in the mash that is needed?

Any good reading on the mechanics of why these elements are needed for conversion? I would like to learn a lot more about this then I have been. I have Palmer's book but I have to be in the mood to read some of those chapters, I am not an engineer or a chemist, something in plain English please lol!

 

[agroff383]

I use nothing but RO water in my beers. We live in a rural area, and our well water is so high in dissolved calcium and iron that it's completely unsuitable for brewing.

I do AG, a fairly thin mash with a single batch sparge. I put Five Star's 5.2 pH regulator in my mash according to package directions, and I put yeast nutrient in the boil according to directions. The only time I add minerals is when called for by a recipe, e.g., I added Burton Water Salts when doing an ESB. My beers taste fine.

Good to know. Thats what I was getting at when I said:4

I want to know why I can't do all RO water. I do all grain. I have read I need minerals. I understand the mash needs minerals to convert, how much do I need? Or does this ride on what kind of beer I am making? If I used all RO water, would my efficency suffer? Or would only the most experienced beer taster be able to tell?

I know that the minerals are critical but I guess what I want to know from the smart guys in the room here is what are the consequences if there is a very small amount of minerals?

 

[smizak]

Good to know. Thats what I was getting at when I said:4

I want to know why I can't do all RO water. I do all grain. I have read I need minerals. I understand the mash needs minerals to convert, how much do I need? Or does this ride on what kind of beer I am making? If I used all RO water, would my efficency suffer? Or would only the most experienced beer taster be able to tell?

I know that the minerals are critical but I guess what I want to know from the smart guys in the room here is what are the consequences if there is a very small amount of minerals?

Don't brew with just RO water. As Bobby said, the amylase enzymes need a calcium ion to catalyze the starch reduction. There is also the issue of mash ph, but it is not a straight forward relationship in terms of water chemistry, different malts have different effects on ph.

Dilute your water with half RO and try to add a couple grams of calcium chloride. That would raise your chloride:sulfate ratio and tend to soften the hop bitterness. I would give you more specific numbers if I knew your chloride ion ppm for your water.

 

[agroff383]

Don't brew with just RO water. As Bobby said, the amylase enzymes need a calcium ion to catalyze the starch reduction. There is also the issue of mash ph, but it is not a straight forward relationship in terms of water chemistry, different malts have different effects on ph.

Dilute your water with half RO and try to add a couple grams of calcium chloride. That would raise your chloride:sulfate ratio and tend to soften the hop bitterness. I would give you more specific numbers if I knew your chloride ion ppm for your water.

Cool. I can try that with a hoppy light colored beer and see if it goes away. What is calcium choride, can I get that at the LHBS? I have my water report, it says between 26-34, there are two plants in the system and I am not sure which one I get my water from, thinking it is the one with 34.

I am going to get more concrete info from the water department early this week when I can call them at work, that way I have more solid info to go off of.

 

[smizak]

Cool. I can try that with a hoppy light colored beer and see if it goes away. What is calcium choride, can I get that at the LHBS? I have my water report, it says between 26-34, there are two plants in the system and I am not sure which one I get my water from, thinking it is the one with 34.

I am going to get more concrete info from the water department early this week when I can call them at work, that way I have more solid info to go off of.

LHBS should have it. If those numbers are right, you've got almost three times as much sulfate as chloride. I did 2:1 with my recent beer, an English IPA, and the hop bitterness lingers considerably. I've gone the opposite route with other beers with similar IBUs and the difference is very noticeable. 2 grams of CaCl2 into five gallons will add around 50 ppms chloride ion. That will put your SO4:Cl ratio a little over to the Cl side. I'm still assuming you have diluted half with RO. Should help.

 

[HenryHill]

I am no expert in chemistry or brewing water building, but I have taken the time to document my experiences in both getting a water test and laying out the path to those who have home water issues and need to find a cure.

Unfortunately, you are going to have to learn about water chemistry and learn how to treat your brewing water, or you are forever going to suffer your poor water's characteristics. Your water is the only real variable in brewing a given recipe, but it doesn't own you; you can have complete control over each and every aspect of it.

You should do a water test to see just exactly what you DO HAVE for water, first, rather than rely on what THEY said it was over 2 years ago. Water changes slightly over time and thru the year. Just because they said it for back then doesn't mean it's what you have now. It's like $16.50 from Wards, and directions are in the following link. Bear in mind that they have instituted some changes since I went thru this, but they are pointed out in the later posts. You should only need to have the basic water test.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-profiles-tools-131443/

Once you get a report of YOUR WATER'S profile, you can start to trial and error what adjustments you should take to make improvements using the spreadsheet. This isn't easy for very many people, so don't feel like the Lone Friggin' Ranger in how confusing this can look at the start. You are only interested in about 5 main chemicals and your Ph, so it isn't limitless frustration. By playing with the spreadsheet and giving all this time to sink in, you can eventually get to where you want to be.

You start with the color of your desired beer. You can see what diluting your water with RO water will do for you by changing the ratio in the spreadsheet, as you add specific chemicals to bring your total water profile into balance, again, according what type of beer you are going to make.

Some gung ho competition people start with RO/distilled water and BUILD their water according to the desired water profile for their given recipe. Most find a happy medium between diluting their tap water with RO water and adding what it takes to make the water suitable for the common types of beer they generally brew. If you can eliminate the big problems, you can use a single profile for most of what you will brew, but you can also make an exact perfect profile for each beer-it's up to you how perfect you want and need it to be. Every style of beer has a corresponding water profile that is most suitable for that style beer. What you will find is that by manipulating your tap water and diluting with a ratio of RO water, and then adding certain things, that you can brew most beers with a single approach for all method, and then later, should you desire, make a more exact water recipe profile for each beer style.

Start with baby steps, using your actual water report from Wards, and when you get stuck, there are a lot of people who can help you by answering questions, in this subforum or in Brew Science, and HBT Chat can help with real-time answers a big portion of any day.

 

[smizak]

Oh and BTW,

UP THE IRONS!!!!

 

[agroff383]

Oh and BTW,

UP THE IRONS!!!!

First comment ever from my avatar, took too long! :rockin::rockin:

 

[agroff383]

LHBS should have it. If those numbers are right, you've got almost three times as much sulfate as chloride. I did 2:1 with my recent beer, an English IPA, and the hop bitterness lingers considerably. I've gone the opposite route with other beers with similar IBUs and the difference is very noticeable. 2 grams of CaCl2 into five gallons will add around 50 ppms chloride ion. That will put your SO4:Cl ratio a little over to the Cl side. I'm still assuming you have diluted half with RO. Should help.

Awesome. Thanks for the info! If I have a 3:1 ratio no wonder I am having issues, if those numbers are correct. Thanks!

 

[agroff383]

I am no expert in chemistry or brewing water building, but I have taken the time to document my experiences in both getting a water test and laying out the path to those who have home water issues and need to find a cure.

Unfortunately, you are going to have to learn about water chemistry and learn how to treat your brewing water, or you are forever going to suffer your poor water's characteristics. Your water is the only real variable in brewing a given recipe, but it doesn't own you; you can have complete control over each and every aspect of it.

You should do a water test to see just exactly what you DO HAVE for water, first, rather than rely on what THEY said it was over 2 years ago. Water changes slightly over time and thru the year. Just because they said it for back then doesn't mean it's what you have now. It's like $16.50 from Wards, and directions are in the following link. Bear in mind that they have instituted some changes since I went thru this, but they are pointed out in the later posts. You should only need to have the basic water test.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-profiles-tools-131443/

Once you get a report of YOUR WATER'S profile, you can start to trial and error what adjustments you should take to make improvements using the spreadsheet. This isn't easy for very many people, so don't feel like the Lone Friggin' Ranger in how confusing this can look at the start. You are only interested in about 5 main chemicals and your Ph, so it isn't limitless frustration. By playing with the spreadsheet and giving all this time to sink in, you can eventually get to where you want to be.

You start with the color of your desired beer. You can see what diluting your water with RO water will do for you by changing the ratio in the spreadsheet, as you add specific chemicals to bring your total water profile into balance, again, according what type of beer you are going to make.

Some gung ho competition people start with RO/distilled water and BUILD their water according to the desired water profile for their given recipe. Most find a happy medium between diluting their tap water with RO water and adding what it takes to make the water suitable for the common types of beer they generally brew. If you can eliminate the big problems, you can use a single profile for most of what you will brew, but you can also make an exact perfect profile for each beer-it's up to you how perfect you want and need it to be. Every style of beer has a corresponding water profile that is most suitable for that style beer. What you will find is that by manipulating your tap water and diluting with a ratio of RO water, and then adding certain things, that you can brew most beers with a single approach for all method, and then later, should you desire, make a more exact water recipe profile for each beer style.

Start with baby steps, using your actual water report from Wards, and when you get stuck, there are a lot of people who can help you by answering questions, in this subforum or in Brew Science, and HBT Chat can help with real-time answers a big portion of any day.

More great info. Thanks guys!

I am not as scared about it as I was yesterday, I did some more reading and now I really want to know how to fine tune it. I am realizing how important it is to my final product, and since I have a good grasp of most of the other aspects I need to sink my teeth into this!

 

[agroff383]

Oh, and I measured my pH of my tap water with my aquarium test kit and it is 7.4

 

[DeafSmith]

There is some good information here:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/How_to_read_a_water_report

also several other pages about water on that web site, along with great information about all aspects of brewing:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Unfortuately, a lot of it is very technical, but that is the nature of the subject. If you really want to understand it, you will have to dig in.

 

[pkeeler]

All the water chemistry stuff has been good and it is important to learn when doing AG. However, I'd also look at your process. Try sparging with 168 deg. water instead of 185. I think you are extracting tannins during your sparge which is leading to a bitter astringency in your beer.

 

[agroff383]

All the water chemistry stuff has been good and it is important to learn when doing AG. However, I'd also look at your process. Try sparging with 168 deg. water instead of 185. I think you are extracting tannins during your sparge which is leading to a bitter astringency in your beer.

So how much would this affect efficency, if at all? I always thought that it seemed a bit high, but I have seen some people on here doing up to 200 degrees on sparge, so I will try a combination of both lower sparge temps and seeing what my water report really consists of so I have a good baseline.

Thanks to all for the great info and advice!

 

[logdrum]

Generally, your target grain bed temp during sparging should be around 168F (under 170F), you need to add a high enough temp infusion to reach it. For me 180-185F works best.
In response to your previous post about chloramines-I don't have empirical evidence that they contribute to harshness, only my observation that the batch I brewed w/ spring water was hoppy w/o being harshly bitter @ about the same IBUs & for the most part the same hop sched.

-d

 

[agroff383]

Ok so I got my water report from '09, the most recent. I will be diluting this with 50 percent RO water.

I am not sure of the proper format you all like to see this in but I will try, it is in a PDF so I dont know how to cut and paste....


Choride 34 mg/L
Sulfate 79 mg/L
Total Dissolved Solids 280 mg/L
Alkalinity 154 mg/L
Calcium 161 mg/L
Hardness 245 mg/L
Sodium 19.5 mg/L
Orthophosphate 0.24 mg/L


Lots of other junk in there but nothing I have seen that matters much with brewing...thoughts?

 

[smizak]

Ok so I got my water report from '09, the most recent. I will be diluting this with 50 percent RO water.

I am not sure of the proper format you all like to see this in but I will try, it is in a PDF so I dont know how to cut and paste....


Choride 34 mg/L
Sulfate 79 mg/L
Total Dissolved Solids 280 mg/L
Alkalinity 154 mg/L
Calcium 161 mg/L
Hardness 245 mg/L
Sodium 19.5 mg/L
Orthophosphate 0.24 mg/L


Lots of other junk in there but nothing I have seen that matters much with brewing...thoughts?

Try the two grams of calcium chloride, one in the mash and one in the boil kettle. According to Palmer's spreadsheet, that will put you at an even chloride:sulfate ratio and dead nuts on for target residual alkalinity, assuming a typical 5 gallon batch and water to grain ratio and sparging rates. Definitely dilute 50% with RO.

 

[agroff383]

Try the two grams of calcium chloride, one in the mash and one in the boil kettle. According to Palmer's spreadsheet, that will put you at an even chloride:sulfate ratio and dead nuts on for target residual alkalinity, assuming a typical 5 gallon batch and water to grain ratio and sparging rates. Definitely dilute 50% with RO.

Cool. This is great, I cant wait to see how these beers come out with my improved process and ideas. Thanks for the advice! I am going to ease into this water chem thing but I got a D in chem in high school, too much math, could never really get it. But when it has to do with beer, I may just get it!

Another question, should I go half RO in the mash and half in the sparge, or all RO to mash then the rest to sparge??

I am assuming the obvious that I split it total between the whole process, that seems to make the most sense.

 

[agroff383]

Try the two grams of calcium chloride, one in the mash and one in the boil kettle. According to Palmer's spreadsheet, that will put you at an even chloride:sulfate ratio and dead nuts on for target residual alkalinity, assuming a typical 5 gallon batch and water to grain ratio and sparging rates. Definitely dilute 50% with RO.

I would usually mash 1.3 qts per pound, and was sparging all my volume in one big batch sparge, but I am going to try to split into two equal sparges to get to my preboil volume, so it would be safe for me to assume typical 5 gallon batch and other variables. Hopefully this is what I need to kind of live with my water for the time being, I am becoming more interested in water building, but for now I just want that salty, harsh aftertaste to GO AWAY.

 

[smizak]

Cool. This is great, I cant wait to see how these beers come out with my improved process and ideas. Thanks for the advice! I am going to ease into this water chem thing but I got a D in chem in high school, too much math, could never really get it. But when it has to do with beer, I may just get it!

Another question, should I go half RO in the mash and half in the sparge, or all RO to mash then the rest to sparge??

I am assuming the obvious that I split it total between the whole process, that seems to make the most sense.

Definitely pre-mix all of your water before either mash or sparge. The numbers I gave you assume you have diluted all of your water with RO. You'll need the minerals from your tap for a proper mash ph, and it's just easier anyway.