Harpoon Leviathan Imperial IPA Clone

[brewski09]

Okay, so every recipe I have seen, no one seems to have brewed them to give any feedback. I am very interested in doing this beer, but want some feedback first. If I don't get feedback, it will go on the brew schedule in the next couple of months.

Targets:
SG=1.092 FG=1.016 IBU=120 ABV=10% EBC=26

Actual:
SG=1.092 FG~1.016 IBU=124.3 ABV=10.1% EBC=25 Efficiency~75%
18lb Briess 2-row pale ale
10oz Briess Crystal 120L
Mash at 148F for 1 hour

1.5oz Chinook for 60 minutes
1oz Simcoe for 30 minutes
1.5 Amarillo for 8 minutes
0.5 Centennial for 8 minutes

Dryhop
1oz Amarillo for 7 days
1oz Simcoe for 7 days
1oz Centennial for 7 days

I use Rager for my IBU calculations. I should be able to get at least 75% efficiency as I average about 80%, even on the DFH90 minute. I hit around 75% for the DFH120 as well (that was a pain to batch sparge, but worth it). I expect the color to be a bit darker because I usually get more color than I expect, but it doesn't seem to effect the final beer.

I know I am probably a bit heavy on the Amarillo aroma addition, but I love that particular aroma.

Give me the feedback and don't be afraid to offend me by telling me I am wrong on my recipe.

 

[pericles]

I have a few thoughts:

First off, I'm assuming from your numbers that this is intended for a 5-6 gallon batch, and not a 10-gallon batch?

Regardless, my opinion is that your grain bill is too big. In my opinion, this recipe will probably end up a little sweeter than the commercial you're trying to clone. I'd sub-in dextrose for 10% of the total fermentables to dry this out, and reduce the other grains accordingly.

I also think that you're using too few hops. I know that Rager gives a very high number for your recipe, but all the formulas dramatically overstate IBUs when you get into the IPA and double IPA range. Maybe add an ounce of Amarillo and Simcoe and flameout?

My last thought is that I usually like to boil imperial IPAs for 90 minutes in order to get better extraction out of earlier additions and provide a more layered effect. You shouldn't have an issue with DMS during a 60 minute boil given your grainbill, so it's a personal preference thing.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

 

[TimTrone]

+1 to everything pericles just said. Very sound advice for a big ipa

 

[pericles]

Appreciate the shoutout from TT.

An additional note on Rager: I checked my spreadsheet for the Pliny Clone recipe Vinny circulated a few years back. With Rager, it's got more than 200IBUs. Lab testing of the commercial version, though, has the IBUs at just over 60. So I guess the lesson (for me) is that if your calculated IBUs are not in the 190-200 range, don't expect it to taste as hoppy as you expect.

 

[brewski09]

I have a few thoughts:

First off, I'm assuming from your numbers that this is intended for a 5-6 gallon batch, and not a 10-gallon batch?

Regardless, my opinion is that your grain bill is too big. In my opinion, this recipe will probably end up a little sweeter than the commercial you're trying to clone. I'd sub-in dextrose for 10% of the total fermentables to dry this out, and reduce the other grains accordingly.

I also think that you're using too few hops. I know that Rager gives a very high number for your recipe, but all the formulas dramatically overstate IBUs when you get into the IPA and double IPA range. Maybe add an ounce of Amarillo and Simcoe and flameout?

My last thought is that I usually like to boil imperial IPAs for 90 minutes in order to get better extraction out of earlier additions and provide a more layered effect. You shouldn't have an issue with DMS during a 60 minute boil given your grainbill, so it's a personal preference thing.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

Sorry, 5 gallon batch size with 75% efficiency on my sparge.

I am planning on a low mash temp of 148, slightly lower than I do my DFH 90 minute IPA, and I get good results on that one (1.018 usually).

I looked at Tinseth and Garetz and they put me in the 90's range, so I'll add some more hops throughout. Wouldn't adding the hops at flameout only add a tiny bit of bitterness? I didn't noticed significant differences when I messed with this in a batch a while back, though I do like the flavors and aromas that you can develop with whirlpool hops.

I considered the 90 minute boil, and probably will do it even though I didn't include it (I have a tendency to change things like that on my brewdays).

Thank you for the input. Do you think the hops will taste/smell right the way I have them ???

 

[pericles]

I am planning on a low mash temp of 148, slightly lower than I do my DFH 90 minute IPA, and I get good results on that one (1.018 usually).

If you've tried a similar recipe and are happy with it, then you should definitely go forward with it as is! For my palette, an FG of 1.018 is just too high for an IPA, even an imperial IPA, since I like my hoppy beers to be pretty dry.

I looked at Tinseth and Garetz and they put me in the 90's range, so I'll add some more hops throughout. Wouldn't adding the hops at flameout only add a tiny bit of bitterness?

You're right that later hop additions will only marginally increase your bitterness. They will, however, significantly increase hop aroma, which is often perceived as bitterness. I personally prefer beers with big hop taste and aroma, but with a milder bitterness, so I load up on hops at the end of the boil, instead of adding one big charge at the beginning. If you prefer bitterness to flavor and aroma, add the extra hops at the beginning—but don't waste your money on Simcoe or Amarillo, you won't be able to tell the difference. Magnum, Centennial, or Columbus are all fine bittering hops. (As are many others.)

I didn't noticed significant differences when I messed with this in a batch a while back, though I do like the flavors and aromas that you can develop with whirlpool hops.

I'm surprised that you didn't notice differences in flavors and aroma based on the timing of your hop additions. Certainly the idea that hop additions will change flavor and aroma has been my experience, and it is also the common wisdom. I wonder whether you waited for too long before drinking? Hop aroma, and also flavor, will volatilize out of solution pretty quickly, so it's a good idea to drink IPAs within the first month or two of brewing—that's why Vinnie is so emphatic about NOT storing Pliny the Elder.

I considered the 90 minute boil, and probably will do it even though I didn't include it (I have a tendency to change things like that on my brewdays).

I get that. There are a lot of gameday decisions.

Thank you for the input. Do you think the hops will taste/smell right the way I have them ???

Well, it's tough to say, since "right" is subjective. In my opinion, the hop charges you have will not be sufficient to balance a 1.18 FG — and I believe that your FG will be significantly higher than that in this case.

I also think that your hop charges will not replicate Harpoon's flavor or aroma, because you have backloaded so many of the additions. In my opinion, I would aim for closer to 160 IBUs with Rager.

It's hard to tell how this will turn out without trying it though and, regardless of how it turns out, you may prefer it your way!

 

[smiller]

So I guess the lesson (for me) is that if your calculated IBUs are not in the 190-200 range, don't expect it to taste as hoppy as you expect.

+1 to this...I just brewed a double IPA that I hopped to 220 calculated IBUs. It isn't done conditioning, but I tasted some when I bottled and it was spot on for what I was expecting. It seems the empirical formulas that are used to calculate IBUs drastically overestimate.

 

[pericles]

It seems the empirical formulas that are used to calculate IBUs drastically overestimate.

I have no evidence to back this up, so take it with a grain of salt. But. . .

. . . I've generally noticed that the formulas agree pretty closely and, for me at least, are all pretty spot on in the historically "normal" styles of beer: milds, pilseners, marzens, and belgians, for instance. The newer styles that use ten times as many hops are the ones that are wrong.

My assumption has always been that the models are all pretty good in the everyday range, like how Newtonian physics works for baseball pretty well. If you want to accurately calculate your hops for an IPA, though, you'll need special relativity.

 

[brewski09]

Problem with the formulas are they are theoretical with no testing to back them up. Someone at UC Davis should test the formulas as a masters project...

 

[brewski09]

New Hop Schedule with more flavor and post boil. Rager IBU=165.

boil 60 mins 1.5 oz Chinook leaf 12.9% AA
boil 30 mins 0.5 oz Centennial leaf 9.9
boil 30 mins 0.5 oz Chinook leaf 12.9
boil 30 mins 1.5 oz Simcoe leaf 12.2
boil 8 mins 1.5 oz Amarillo leaf 8.4
boil 8 mins 0.5 oz Centennial leaf 9.9
post-boil 30 mins 0.5 oz Centennial leaf 9.9
post-boil 30 mins 0.5 oz Chinook leaf 12.9
post-boil 30 mins 0.5 oz Simcoe leaf 12.2
dry hop 7 days 1 oz Amarillo leaf 8.4
dry hop 7 days 1 oz Centennial leaf 9.9
dry hop 7 days 1 oz Simcoe leaf 12.2

Trying to get a decent approximation of the hop character in this beer is harder than I thought it would be. Thx for the input. If you guys think this looks decent, I'll go ahead and put it on the schedule for May/June (Brewing Left Hand Milk Stout this month)

 

[brewski09]

made this, but missed my boiloff target somehow (no idea, but i think i was drinking), so my gravity was high and so were my IBUs... Its a good barleywine when you do that, but not a very good imperial IPA. The recipe seemed pretty close though, so i'll have to rebrew in january