Got my water report, now im confused what to do
- Thread starter Scout
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk:
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,925
- Reaction score
- 6,113
This is probably not an answer you were hoping for, but that water would not be great for most beer styles. One issue is the Sulfate, at 438 ppm. (Ward reports Sulfate "as Sulfur," so the number has to be multiplied by 3.) I'm trying to think of a case where 438 ppm would be desirable. Maybe burton ales.
pretty hard also, but you don't really need much except acid to lower the hardness and more calcium carbonate for some beers, are you asking what numbers to plug into calculators?
You need 6 of those elements to build a water profile each is ppm they are
Calcium 96
Magnesium 42
Sodium 78
Sulphate 146
Chloride 13
Bicarbonate 122
And that’s your water profile.
Calcium 96
Magnesium 42
Sodium 78
Sulphate 146
Chloride 13
Bicarbonate 122
And that’s your water profile.
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,925
- Reaction score
- 6,113
Sulfate is 438 ppm.
How when it says 146?
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,925
- Reaction score
- 6,113
It says SO4-S, which means "Sulfate expressed as Sulfur." What that means is that the sulfate ions were counted, but then reported as if each Sulfate ion's mass was the same as a Sulfur atom. But a Sulfate ion weighs 3 times as much as a Sulfur atom, so the number has to be multiplied by three to get the ppm of Sulphate ion. Every mash pH/water calculator needs this "as S" number to be multiplied by three before entering the starting profile in order to work properly.
Ok but news to me.
OP
OP
Scout
Well-Known Member
Yeah that sulfate number is a big question for me. I've done a little research and a water softener won't reduce it. I see mixed answers on safe limits for drinking.
There are ion exchange systems that can address sulfates and hardness in one unit.
"Sulfates in drinking water currently has a Secondary Maximum Contaminant Level (SMCL) of 250 ppm (mg/l). At this level or above, sulfates may cause diarrhea and resulting dehydration."
https://www.raindanceh2ostore.com/blog/how-do-you-remove-nitrates-sulfates-tannins
Cheers!
"Sulfates in drinking water currently has a Secondary Maximum Contaminant Level (SMCL) of 250 ppm (mg/l). At this level or above, sulfates may cause diarrhea and resulting dehydration."
https://www.raindanceh2ostore.com/blog/how-do-you-remove-nitrates-sulfates-tannins
Cheers!
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,925
- Reaction score
- 6,113
You're welcome.
OP
OP
Scout
Well-Known Member
Do you use that? It sounds good, but i can't find many reviews about it online. One reddit thread had a couple people happy with it, and a couple posting the same comment over and over talking ****.
Rather than dance around it, you need to install an RO system. It's $150 or so.
I do not. My well water sulfate and nitrate levels are both under 6 ppm.
My problem is the 230+ ppm alkalinity but I solved that with a 100gpd RO system.
If I had water like yours that'd definitely be on the to-do list lest my brewing efforts gave everyone the constant craps
Cheers!
The other alternative is to buy RO water from the grocery store dispenser. Just a couple things:
1. You don't know how well the store's filtering system is maintained.
2. Schlepping jugs of water around gets to be a PITA.
Check out Buckeye Hydro for a good RO system. Money well spent and you'll find other uses for the water, too. While you're at it, get a TDS meter. They're $10-$15 on Amazon.
1. You don't know how well the store's filtering system is maintained.
2. Schlepping jugs of water around gets to be a PITA.
Check out Buckeye Hydro for a good RO system. Money well spent and you'll find other uses for the water, too. While you're at it, get a TDS meter. They're $10-$15 on Amazon.
my well water is very low in everything except hardness lol, makes a good dark beer just by its selfI do not. My well water sulfate and nitrate levels are both under 6 ppm.
My problem is the 230+ ppm alkalinity but I solved that with a 100gpd RO system.
If I had water like yours that'd definitely be on the to-do list lest my brewing efforts gave everyone the constant craps
Cheers!
35.9 25.0 5.0 3.0 5.0 151.0 CaCO3 8.2
Grocery store RO would be my first choice, only because I’m too cheap to buy an RO system.
VikeMan
It ain't all burritos and strippers, my friend.
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2010
- Messages
- 5,925
- Reaction score
- 6,113
Distilled water (also grocery store) is also an option. It's more expensive, and still has to be schlepped, but has the advantage of being immune from lazy RO system maintenance. That said, a TDS meter can detect a bad batch of RO water.
Get used to it, they've started doing it to us "GBians" already. This a Dwr Cymru snippet:
They've not done it to Sulphate yet, but over here there's "as N" and "as P" (which is same as "NO3-N" and "PO4-P", though the American Water Companies don't use the latter either?). Our water companies will do it because the numbers are much smaller, and "N" and "P" equals "pollution" and they (the UK Water Companies) want to hide that!
I'm too cheep to not install an RO system.
Purchased RO water is between .30-.50 $ per gallon. Home RO water is .03 $ per. Filter change is ~100$ and I get 3000+ gallons. I think after 6 years it's more then payed for itself. Oh, my alkalinity is ~400ppm.
Purchased RO water is between .30-.50 $ per gallon. Home RO water is .03 $ per. Filter change is ~100$ and I get 3000+ gallons. I think after 6 years it's more then payed for itself. Oh, my alkalinity is ~400ppm.
OP
OP
Scout
Well-Known Member
I thought about grocery store RO, but I generally start with 20 gallons strike water
$132. That will pay for itself in 6 brew days if you'd pay about $1 a gallon elsewhere.
https://www.amazon.com/Geekpure-5-S...cphy=1022369&hvtargid=pla-2281435178298&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/Geekpure-5-S...cphy=1022369&hvtargid=pla-2281435178298&psc=1
RO - was going to suggest the same solution.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2024
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 13
I got this one for $70:
https://www.amazon.com/Aquatic-Life...4834&sprefix=aquarium+ro+,aps,119&sr=8-1&th=1
You could brew some English styles with that water as-is, I think. Definitely would be on the "minerally" end of the scale. I didn't plug the numbers into the calculator, but something dark and bitter looks possible.
In case you want something to drink while you wait for your RO system to come in the mail...
In case you want something to drink while you wait for your RO system to come in the mail...
It's better than nothing but it lacks two things I prefer in an RO system. An auto shutoff that stops fresh water from continuing to enter the membrane even when the RO output is closed off. Since I like to use a float valve to stop filling my brew kettle, it's the only thing that prevents wearing out the prefilters for no gain and wasting water. That's related to the second thing, the prefilters are single use modules that have to be replaced entirely. The slightly more expensive assemblies use standard, ubiquitous replaceable 10" inserts.
Yes, high sulfate levels are frequently used in British beers, but be careful when with high levels of sodium. Usually in British natural waters, sodium will be present as common salt, with chloride. In this case it appear to be in the form sodium sulfate as there is very little chloride in that water, and that won't make the best beers.
See https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/a-pinch-of-salt-sodium-in-beer-and-brewing/
Half way down is this section...
I virtually only brew British styles of beer treating heavily mineralized water, but would suggest getting an RO unit for brewing liquor.
doogster
Well-Known Member
?? In reading the docs I see no mention of this.
I should be more specific. I didn't mean that you can only collect 10 gallons of RO and then you have to throw the prefilters away. What I mean is that when the filters have to be replaced, you don't open up the housing and slip a filter element in. The whole plastic pill/submarine shaped thing with the hoses pressed into the ends has to be discarded. I generally replace the sediment and carbon prefilters about every 6 months, and that's probably after making 200-300 gallons of RO.
See, this is a 10" filter housing and the associated 10" insert (which I get in a two pack from Walmart for $12). You can even get a 10 pack for $30 on Amazon.
What you have is a self contained inline version of that, something like these below. You have to move the push connect fittings over to the new units and a lot more plastic gets thrown away in the process. Because of the extra plastic and the fact that they are sold in way less volume, they are more expensive. It's kind of a pay now or pay later kind of thing.
That's a great point. I did not know that sodium sulphate was even a thing, or that the it matters which ions came into the soup stuck to which other ions.
I have made good, dark, bitter beers with my soft well water in which I pushed all three (sulphate, chloride, sodium) up to about half the OP's levels, or in the neighborhood of what that article suggests is the maximum, without knowing that I was close to the edge, I guess.
I don't think it does matter what anions came in with what cations. What matters is the final concentration of each ion and the ratios of the different ions. I think @cire 's reference is saying that high sodium, plus very high sulfate, and low chloride is not a good combo.
Brew on
if you look at ipa profiles all over the web they list higher concentrations of sulfates than that, I would worry more about the total hardness, you can also dilute your water instead of completely replacing it
Absolutely, and that will always be good. Many times my water starts with 135ppm sulfate and near 50ppm sodium, to which I add salts and acids, but none that will reach the levels in the water currently under discussion.
A 50/50 mix of that water and RO would make a good starting point,
I have brewed with over 400ppn sulphate several times, but have found such beers take longer to mature, but when they do, they can be exceptional.
High sulfate rarely improves darker ales, which usually benefit substantially from high levels of chloride and sodium.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2024
- Messages
- 20
- Reaction score
- 13
You are correct and I didn't realize that when I bought it. I haven't had to replace filters yet but when it's time I will probably upgrade the system to the one you use. The one I have was easy to install and works quite well given the limitations you mentioned. I only make about 200 gallons of RO in a year and that Amazon gift card I used made it an easy choice. I do have your float valve installed (genius product!) and I try to shut the water off soon after it fills the brew pot but it would be nice to be able to not have to keep an eye on it. Thanks for the reply!
@Scout, I might have brought a stop to discussions about brewing possibilities with your well water. That wasn't my intention, just wishing to advise that English style ales are generally balanced, rather than extremes made from highly mineralized water. Your water won't make a typical English Ale without reducing the high levels of Sodium and/or Sulphate any more than it will make a Pilsen Lager. However, that doesn't mean it will not make beer.
Might I suggest you brew a simple ale using 95% pale malt with an equal mix of crystal and black malt to counter some of the alkalinity present in your water. Use your water as it is or maybe add a little calcium chloride to ease the dryness the sulfate will provide. Ferment it with an ale yeast at ale yeast temperatures to find what you think.
Even the water that the OP presented, will make beer. No brewer HAS to perform any water adjustments of any kind. However, if they're wanting good or great results, there is no choice but to adjust their water to better conform to the requirements of the mash and beer style.
The OP's water has ionic content that will make it difficult to brew a wide variety of styles. Incorporating a RO machine into the water treatment is probably the only reasonable alternative for them. As others have mentioned, select a good RO machine and you'll have fewer problems down the road. This article provides some guidance: https://www.brunwater.com/articles/what-ro-system-should-i-buy
The OP's water has ionic content that will make it difficult to brew a wide variety of styles. Incorporating a RO machine into the water treatment is probably the only reasonable alternative for them. As others have mentioned, select a good RO machine and you'll have fewer problems down the road. This article provides some guidance: https://www.brunwater.com/articles/what-ro-system-should-i-buy
I've come to the conclusion that it's nice to know what your local water looks like, but you really have to treat it like a snapshot in time. It changes seasonally for many people. When you make and use 100% RO, you know what the water is, period. I don't like unknown variables, especially when you think you know them.
