Glycol Chiller Selection and Setup Query

[Michael K]

Recently, I have been thinking seriously about buying a glycol chiller. But I am hoping to use it with solenoids and this notion is creating problems for me mainly because I don't know if I want to pay the electric bill for a "power-pack" pump that must run continuously - 24/7.

Of course, in most of the Western world, including North America, Australia, and the UK, small home brewery glycol chillers consists of copper cooling coils submerged in a vat/tank of glycol. The home brewer then submerges small plastic pumps in this glycol bath and these pumps are triggered on by a controller which is hooked up to a temperature probe.

Now, I do not like this idea because each vessel must have a separate out and back hose. It seems messy and it is not scalable; that is, one is generally limited to a maximum of 4 fermenters (and if you had more the hose situation would get really messy). Hence, I am inclined to utilize a more professional set up with a single pump and solenoid valves. But I am not sure which chiller would work best for me. I think that, in terms of size, a small chiller would be sufficient because my vessels are only 8 and 15 gallons each. One idea that I had was to purchase a homebrewer (tank-type) chiller and then purchase a separate single pump which would be mounted on the chiller or next to it. The pump would run only when there was a call for glycol and a solenoid valve opened. But for this to work I would need a relay that could trigger both the pump and the solenoid simultaneously and my electrical engineering skills are a bit basic. I could purchase a "power pack"/beer line chiller, but I am nervous about running costs for one of these units versus a homebrew-style chiller. I am hoping that you can help with my thinking.

I am new to the forum. So, I apologize if this topic has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. I did find a post where a fellow had a diagram of such a set up. But I cannot find it any longer.

 

[Jag75]

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here. What you want is to have 1 inlet hose that has say 4 off branching hoses that go to each fermenter, then you'll have 4 of the outlet hoses connect to a single hose that dumps back in the glycol tank .

The inlet branching hoses to each fv will have solenoids that will open and shut to allow glycol to go to that fv as needed.

So in essence if you have 4 fermenters ( in which normally you would need 4 inlet hoses , 4 pumps and 4 outlet hoses ) you will only have 1 pump , 1 inlet hose and 1 outlet hose.

Am I understanding this ?

 

[Michael K]

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here. What you want is to have 1 inlet hose that has say 4 off branching hoses that go to each fermenter, then you'll have 4 of the outlet hoses connect to a single hose that dumps back in the glycol tank .

The inlet branching hoses to each fv will have solenoids that will open and shut to allow glycol to go to that fv as needed.

So in essence if you have 4 fermenters ( in which normally you would need 4 inlet hoses , 4 pumps and 4 outlet hoses ) you will only have 1 pump , 1 inlet hose and 1 outlet hose.

Am I understanding this ?

Hi Jag75,

I believe that you are understanding me correctly. There is actually a post someplace on this forum where I fellow diagrammed the setup that I have in mind using "rip-tide" (or similar) pump. As far as I can tell, there is real divide between a "homebrew" chiller set-up and a "pro" setup that goes right back to the chiller design. I think that I understand why a homebrewing chiller set up uses pumps. They are simpler and one can guarantee getting sufficient flow into each vessel. But conceptually, at least, I prefer the idea of using a single pump on a glycol loop and solenoids. It just seems cleaner, for one thing. I don't have any idea, however, about running costs for these two types of systems. The first concern is that the pumps on the pro-setup run 24/7. I will do some research and see if I can answer this question. The next issue will be a fermentation controller.

I copied the following from the Penguin Chillers website:

Setup for Brewing Applications
With the controller on the the chiller set to 28F, you need a way to regulate the flow of cold glycol out of the chiller to each fermenter so that a variety of temperatures can be maintained across multiple fermenters. There are 2 main ways to accomplish this, our chillers can be used with either method.

• One pump per fermenter: A submersible glycol pump is put into the reservoir, tubing is run out to a single fermenter and back to the chiller. The pump is plugged into a controller that monitors fermenter temperature. The flow of cold glycol is regulated via the pump turning on/off as needed for that fermenter. We sell this style of pump/tubing/controller – see our glycol chiller accessory package.
• Glycol Loop: A single external continuous duty pump runs 24/7 to provide flow through a network of pipe in the brewery. There are solenoid valves on the supply line that are wired into a centralized control panel for the entire operation. The flow of glycol is regulated via opening/closing of the solenoids to provide glycol to a particular fermenter as needed. While our chiller will work for this type of install, we do not carry any of the products needed to setup a glycol loop.

Regards,

Michael

 

[Gfei]

There's no reason the pump needs to be run 24/7. It only needs to run if one of the solenoids is open.

 

[Michael K]

There's no reason the pump needs to be run 24/7. It only needs to run if one of the solenoids is open.

Right, I actually spoke with a chiller manufacture who informed me that there was no reason that I couldn't put a pump on a stand next to the chiller. But, in this case, I would need a controller that can turn on the pump just in case any solenoid is asked to open, and my engineering skills are woeful to modest, at best. There is also the question of which pump would be suited to the task.

 

[Jag75]

How many fv do you have and use at the same time?

 

[Michael K]

How many fv do you have and use at the same time?

Hi Jag75,

I currently have 2 x 60L jacketed fermenters and 1 x 30L stainless steel fermenter with cooling coils. I also have a 50L Speidel Braumeister Plus with a cooling jacket. (I also have 20L Braumeister, but it won't use glycol.) My idea for the 50L unit is to do two stage cooling where I use an immersion chiller to get the wort temperature down below 100 F/40 C - ish and then run glycol through the jacket of the 50L to bring the wort temperature down to whatever I want. My fermenters are non-pressure. They are not uni-tanks. So I may add a small Brite tank at some point. Part of what is driving me is simply the challenge of setting the system up "professionally"; in part, because I may want to turn the whole thing into a business at some point.

What I would really like to do is to set up something that looks like this: (Image credit: I took it from the Speidel website). Note that my fermenters are smaller.

 

[Jag75]

That's a sweet set up right there . Im curious about the system you want set up . We are a small 3bbl brewery and use a SsBrewtech glycol chiller . It works but I could see how the hoses can be cluttered.

 

[Michael K]

You system looks very functional and well organized. It looks like you have a couple of SS Brewtech Brite tanks? How do they work for you? I was concerned that the cooling coils would develop a block of ice, if you tried to cold crash with it. I was looking at one myself.

As for the system that I want to set up. It would look very much like what you see in the photo, plus the addition of a flexible line leading to the 50L Braumeister. I currently do not aspire to be a brewery, per se. I am just after figuring out how to use solenoids and a computer/web based controller with a glycol chiller and vessels. Hopefully, I can find people to consume all the beer that I end up making. ;-)

 

[SanPancho]

That's a sweet set up right there . Im curious about the system you want set up . We are a small 3bbl brewery and use a SsBrewtech glycol chiller . It works but I could see how the hoses can be cluttered.

How in the world were you able to set up a food prep area on a wood floor, let alone adjacent to unfinished wood and unpainted drywall?

 

[SanPancho]

so you want to set up a manifold type glycol loop system, that will be able to control 4 to 5 vessels on a 24/7 basis, one of which will be as high as 100F (!), and you want this all to be remote-access/web based, with a central control panel holding each tank's controls ($$),,,, but you're worried about the cost of running a small pump (~1/8hp i'd guess) on constant use basis.

is that essentially your dilemma?

 

[Michael K]

so you want to set up a manifold type glycol loop system, that will be able to control 4 to 5 vessels on a 24/7 basis, one of which will be as high as 100F (!), and you want this all to be remote-access/web based, with a central control panel holding each tank's controls ($$),,,, but you're worried about the cost of running a small pump (~1/8hp i'd guess) on constant use basis.

is that essentially your dilemma?

"
'Worried' is too strong a word. I have no idea how much current such a pump draws. So, I do not know whether this is anything to be concerned about. Perhaps you know...

 

[SanPancho]

you dont want a simple 1tank=1pump system like a typical homebrew setup, which means you need a manifold system, of which you are requiring it to be set up on a demand-only pump loop, as opposed to a traditional always-on loop pump.

so if "worried about electric bill" isnt the correct description, how would you describe the basis of your reluctance to go with a "standard" system? is there a specific reason here?

i'm trying to understand the reason you have for wanting/needing to go with a much more complicated system vs a more "tried and true" set up. something about your equipment? environment? aesthetics?

 

[Michael K]

you dont want a simple 1tank=1pump system like a typical homebrew setup, which means you need a manifold system, of which you are requiring it to be set up on a demand-only pump loop, as opposed to a traditional always-on loop pump.

so if "worried about electric bill" isnt the correct description, how would you describe the basis of your reluctance to go with a "standard" system? is there a specific reason here?

i'm trying to understand the reason you have for wanting/needing to go with a much more complicated system vs a more "tried and true" set up. something about your equipment? environment? aesthetics?

The system that I have in mind will be a homebrew system; that is, I am not using it to make money. Consequently, I am trying to keep my running costs down. The main objective is to learn how to make a closed-loop system. If the pump has to be always on, for some reason, then so be it. (I know that some chiller designs actually require the pump to run - see below.) If, however, since I am not likely to be utilizing the system to full capacity very often, the pump can be toggled on and off (electronically), on demand, then that sounds like a better idea to me. That said, whether the pump can be switched on and off with the solenoid is not a deal breaker for me. Down the road I may wish to expand the system into something commercial and, consequently, I want to learn how to set up a pro-type system, whether I actually utilize it fully or not.

 

[SanPancho]

cheap
fast
good

you can pick one, or you can pick two, but you cant have all three.

make that decision, and then we can help you go where you want to go.

 

[Michael K]

I will skip "fast" in that case.

 

[SanPancho]

ok. so you need to decide if you want to be involved with building it, or just get an all in one system.

all in one- icemaster (?) unit with 4 integrated pumps/controllers. cheap and simple solution. works well, will easily handle all your tanks, although i wouldnt try to actively crash more than one at a time. not an energy hog, relatively easy on the electric bill. run all your glycol lines inside a 2" pvc pipe to keep them organized and clean, and insulated.

if you want to cheap as possible, you're looking at building a DIY chiller unit. you can find DIY examples all over the web.

as for the glycol loop system- if you're patient and able to find cheap parts, i'd wager you can spend less by using a manifold system with individual solenoids for each tank. (as opposed to the 1pump per tank type system) skip the central control panel. ($$$). get a temp controller unit for each tank. Johnston, ETL, Ranco. are not cheap, but you can do a simple inkbird type for pretty cheap. or buy your own ST1000 type controller for each tank, and make DIY housings for them.

get some cheap solenoids off ebay or amazon. 3/8" is fine, 1/2" should be fine.

get yourself a submersible pump for the loop. and that's pretty much it. its not rocket science.

the bigger question is what's more important to you? exploring and building the system as a learning experience? or not spending too much cash.

because the all in one system doesnt seem cheapest at first glance. but once you start realizing you need to power each contoller at each tank, you now need to run more electrical. or extension cords. and with water and power all over the place, i'd say its time to consider low voltage gear for safety. that means no inkbird units. have to spend cash on johnston/ranco/ETL type units to get a controller than will have a 12/24v output. (if there are cheap ones with 12/24v output i havent seen them)
generally the smaller your fittings and materials (solenoids, tees, valves, tubing, hoses, insulation, etc) the less the cost. but if your tanks have 1/2" inlets/outlets, is it worth it to buy adapters to get them smaller to match the fittings you choose (1/4 or 3/8)? or is it a wash? how easy is it going to be for you to run 1/4 tubing and get it insulated? or what about 3/8? most off the shelf insulation is for pvc/copper piping and is too big for those hoses...
is pvc gonna be cheaper? or pex? pex fittings are expensive vs pvc. but you'll likely need fewer of them vs pvc. fewer leaks too if properly installed.

even if you dont need to have ability to set your glycol pump to be "demand only" do you still want/need web control? if so you'll need web-enabled temp controllers. not sure where you find those. or ditch the individual tank controls and go back to the central control panel. ($$) then figure out how to get remote access/control.

as you can see there are a ton of decisions that go into making these systems. the decision tree gets insane once you add all the variables. you could spend weeks trying to cost it all out.

so.... if you want a system to run your homebrew setup, then go for basic and easy. i honestly would advise the all in one setup.
if you want to turn this into a for profit operation and get a bigger system you can always sell the all in one setup and spend the dough for a bigger fancier system. my hunch is that if the homebrew system has enough power to run all your tanks, you wont need any of that other crap you think you do right now. plenty of nanos run "hombrew" type setups and do just fine.

i've built three of these systems, four if you want to be technical, and all of them were different. because the circumstances/design/utilties/size/format of each brewery were different. but none of it was hard to figure out. ALL of it was stuff i could do myself with decent construction skills. i like puzzles and learning things just for the fun of it, but this isnt an area to spend a lot of time and effort becoming an expert. your time is better spent studying brewing science than trying to become a plumber/electrician/coder/hvac guy. the goal is to build it and never have to touch it ever again. throw in a bunch of crazy bells and whistles and what you have is a good way to lose a batch of beer (internet/power outage??), and another routine to add into your regular maintenance schedule.

keep it simple. best advice.

 

[Jag75]

How in the world were you able to set up a food prep area on a wood floor, let alone adjacent to unfinished wood and unpainted drywall?

It's in progress . That wall was just built. Wood floor has been sealed , however it needs to be pulled up and redone . Some areas weren't done right .

 

[Jag75]

You system looks very functional and well organized. It looks like you have a couple of SS Brewtech Brite tanks? How do they work for you? I was concerned that the cooling coils would develop a block of ice, if you tried to cold crash with it. I was looking at one myself.

As for the system that I want to set up. It would look very much like what you see in the photo, plus the addition of a flexible line leading to the 50L Braumeister. I currently do not aspire to be a brewery, per se. I am just after figuring out how to use solenoids and a computer/web based controller with a glycol chiller and vessels. Hopefully, I can find people to consume all the beer that I end up making. ;-)

They work great , no issues .

 

[Michael K]

ok. so you need to decide if you want to be involved with building it, or just get an all in one system.

I want to build it.

all in one- icemaster (?) unit with 4 integrated pumps/controllers. cheap and simple solution. works well, will easily handle all your tanks, although i wouldnt try to actively crash more than one at a time. not an energy hog, relatively easy on the electric bill. run all your glycol lines inside a 2" pvc pipe to keep them organized and clean, and insulated.

I do not want to use multiple pumps, as I mentioned.

if you want to cheap as possible, you're looking at building a DIY chiller unit. you can find DIY examples all over the web.

I do not want a DIY chiller unit.

as for the glycol loop system- if you're patient and able to find cheap parts, i'd wager you can spend less by using a manifold system with individual solenoids for each tank. (as opposed to the 1pump per tank type system) skip the central control panel. ($$$). get a temp controller unit for each tank. Johnston, ETL, Ranco. are not cheap, but you can do a simple inkbird type for pretty cheap. or buy your own ST1000 type controller for each tank, and make DIY housings for them.

I am familiar with the inkbird, as I already own one. But I really want to experiment with a centralized controller. This guy's system looks particularly interesting. Home | BierBot | Homebrewing automation

get some cheap solenoids off ebay or amazon. 3/8" is fine, 1/2" should be fine.

I will probably get some decent solenoids. If I had the nerve, I would work up a system with proportional valves. But I will leave that for another day.

get yourself a submersible pump for the loop. and that's pretty much it. its not rocket science.

I doubt that a submersible pump would provide adequate pressure for the system.

the bigger question is what's more important to you? exploring and building the system as a learning experience? or not spending too much cash.

As I mentioned, the main thing for me is the experience of making the system. I do not have endlessly deep pockets, however.

because the all in one system doesnt seem cheapest at first glance. but once you start realizing you need to power each contoller at each tank, you now need to run more electrical. or extension cords. and with water and power all over the place, i'd say its time to consider low voltage gear for safety. that means no inkbird units. have to spend cash on johnston/ranco/ETL type units to get a controller than will have a 12/24v output. (if there are cheap ones with 12/24v output i havent seen them)

Yes, I had read on the Probrewer forum that 24v solenoids is the way to go.

generally the smaller your fittings and materials (solenoids, tees, valves, tubing, hoses, insulation, etc) the less the cost. but if your tanks have 1/2" inlets/outlets, is it worth it to buy adapters to get them smaller to match the fittings you choose (1/4 or 3/8)? or is it a wash? how easy is it going to be for you to run 1/4 tubing and get it insulated? or what about 3/8? most off the shelf insulation is for pvc/copper piping and is too big for those hoses...

The inlets/outlets of my Speidel fermenters are quite large. The I.D. is 1".

is pvc gonna be cheaper? or pex? pex fittings are expensive vs pvc. but you'll likely need fewer of them vs pvc. fewer leaks too if properly installed.

I have no idea which tubing is going to be best for the job. I am aware that you can use all the options you mention.

even if you dont need to have ability to set your glycol pump to be "demand only" do you still want/need web control? if so you'll need web-enabled temp controllers. not sure where you find those. or ditch the individual tank controls and go back to the central control panel. ($$) then figure out how to get remote access/control.

I am hoping that Bernard at Bierbot will help, if I get stuck.

as you can see there are a ton of decisions that go into making these systems. the decision tree gets insane once you add all the variables. you could spend weeks trying to cost it all out.

I doubt that I will bother costing it out. I will just get what looks right for the job.

so.... if you want a system to run your homebrew setup, then go for basic and easy. i honestly would advise the all in one setup.
if you want to turn this into a for profit operation and get a bigger system you can always sell the all in one setup and spend the dough for a bigger fancier system. my hunch is that if the homebrew system has enough power to run all your tanks, you wont need any of that other crap you think you do right now. plenty of nanos run "hombrew" type setups and do just fine.

Which system would you advise, if I said that I wanted to run 20 fermentation vessels simultaneously?

i've built three of these systems, four if you want to be technical, and all of them were different. because the circumstances/design/utilties/size/format of each brewery were different. but none of it was hard to figure out. ALL of it was stuff i could do myself with decent construction skills. i like puzzles and learning things just for the fun of it, but this isnt an area to spend a lot of time and effort becoming an expert. your time is better spent studying brewing science than trying to become a plumber/electrician/coder/hvac guy. the goal is to build it and never have to touch it ever again. throw in a bunch of crazy bells and whistles and what you have is a good way to lose a batch of beer (internet/power outage??), and another routine to add into your regular maintenance schedule.

keep it simple. best advice.

Point taken - thank you for your assistance.

 

[Michael K]

They work great , no issues .

Thank you. That is good to know.

 

[Homergah]

I'll weigh in with my personal and professional opinion. Stay away from cheap. Even not-so-cheap has left us with warm fermenting beer. Solenoids that would not open when they should, or stay open when they shouldn't. Do not downsize any of your tubing. You will simply be downsizing the capacity of your system. You don't sound like you're looking for cheap, which is a great. If you can't afford what you need, wait until you can. Wishing that the pump does not run 24/7 is very good thinking, even if you have a very high budget for install. Planning an efficient running system should always be a consideration. The picture you posted from Braumeister shows a single loop bypass system. The only thing that I would change is the way the manifold is designed. It appears the set-up is "first in, first out". I don't like that setup. If you have multiple solenoids open calling for glycol, the first tank on the line is going to get all the flow, or most of it. I have to get back to work. I'll tag you with some more info later.

 

[Mike Howard]

When I first set up my glycol chiller I was using plastic fermenters, I've since switched to SS Brewtech Chronicals with the built in chiller coil, but my setup is the same. I use a single chiller that has a single pump and then I built a controll box that houses 3 STC1001 Temperature controllers. It works very well and has been working for a solid 4 years now.

The pump does run continously and has a single OUT (supply) and a single IN (return). The OUT is connected to relays on each fermenter at the SS Coil. There is a Pressure Regulator which allows me to control the flow at the coils and is expandable if I ever want to add more fermenters. I usually run the regulator at 20 psi and that seems to work well. The chiller motor is a 2.5 HP motor, so it has plenty of power for expansion.

I don't have pics from my current set up, but here are some pics of when I was building the setup.

 

[Michael K]

I'll weigh in with my personal and professional opinion. Stay away from cheap. Even not-so-cheap has left us with warm fermenting beer. Solenoids that would not open when they should, or stay open when they shouldn't. Do not downsize any of your tubing. You will simply be downsizing the capacity of your system. You don't sound like you're looking for cheap, which is a great. If you can't afford what you need, wait until you can.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. My understanding is that the industry standard valve is the Asco "Red Hat". I took a quick look at the website. The options are dizzying. I am happy to save money, but, not at the cost of reliability, as you emphasize.

Wishing that the pump does not run 24/7 is very good thinking, even if you have a very high budget for install. Planning an efficient running system should always be a consideration.

Well, I think that it is possible, as long as I do not use a standard chiller design and, instead, employ a bath/tank-design. But, my main problem is the logic/engineering of triggering the pump to come on just in case any solenoid opens. I have no idea how to do this.

The picture you posted from Braumeister shows a single loop bypass system. The only thing that I would change is the way the manifold is designed. It appears the set-up is "first in, first out". I don't like that setup. If you have multiple solenoids open calling for glycol, the first tank on the line is going to get all the flow, or most of it. I have to get back to work. I'll tag you with some more info later.

I read somewhere that "first in/first out" was not the way to go. The day before yesterday my 80 year old mother (a retired lab tech) asked me how I was going to secure adequate flow to each vessel when all of the solenoids are open...good old mom. Thank you for the reminder. I am also wondering whether it is better, for any given vessel, to install the solenoids after the outflow, as opposed to before the inflow. Perhaps you know the answer. I know that one ought to run the outflow above the vessels and the inflow below.

 

[Mike Howard]

The PDF file I attached should answer some of those questions. You definitely want to have the solenoids on the IN to each fermenter. I have seen pumps that are pressure sensitive, so when the pressure drops the pump kicks on, like in an RV trailer, the pump turns on when you turn on any water faucet in the trailer. Honestly, having the pump run all the time is no big deal really as the start up uses a lot of power.

 

[Michael K]

When I first set up my glycol chiller I was using plastic fermenters, I've since switched to SS Brewtech Chronicals with the built in chiller coil, but my setup is the same. I use a single chiller that has a single pump and then I built a controll box that houses 3 STC1001 Temperature controllers. It works very well and has been working for a solid 4 years now.

I have never seen those plastic fermenters. They are interesting. The set-up/system looks very functional and I am glad to hear that it has been solid for you!

The pump does run continously and has a single OUT (supply) and a single IN (return). The OUT is connected to relays on each fermenter at the SS Coil. There is a Pressure Regulator which allows me to control the flow at the coils and is expandable if I ever want to add more fermenters. I usually run the regulator at 20 psi and that seems to work well. The chiller motor is a 2.5 HP motor, so it has plenty of power for expansion.

I need to understand the role of pressure better in regulating flow.

I don't have pics from my current set up, but here are some pics of when I was building the setup.

View attachment 758686View attachment 758687View attachment 758688View attachment 758689View attachment 758690View attachment 758691View attachment 758692

They are good photos. The control box looks interesting. This is something else that I need to figure out. Thank you for your input.

 

[Michael K]

The PDF file I attached should answer some of those questions. You definitely want to have the solenoids on the IN to each fermenter. I have seen pumps that are pressure sensitive, so when the pressure drops the pump kicks on, like in an RV trailer, the pump turns on when you turn on any water faucet in the trailer. Honestly, having the pump run all the time is no big deal really as the start up uses a lot of power.

That plate chiller in the diagram looks pretty interesting. I don't think that I have seen one quite like it. What is that thing? Thank you for the information on the 24/7 pump. I have yet to look up current draw on one of those things.

 

[Mike Howard]

@Michael K That plate chiller in the document is a standard commercial plate chiller that most pro breweries have, we have one at our brewery. It is quite large being approximately 8 inches wide by 3 feet tall by 2 feet long...its a beast.

However, unless your chiller has a lot of capacity, I do not recommend using the same chiller to support fermentation and wort cooling. I originally had my Exchillerator plumbed into the IN/OUT lines, using a couple of manual vales to control flow to/from the chiller, but the chiller capacity (15 gallons) was not big enough to prevent my chiller liquid from rising above my setpoints on the fermenters. Now I just use city water to run through the chiller and it does the job well enough.

 

[Homergah]

Yes, the Asco valve is a very reliable valve. As Mike stated above, having the chiller pull double duty could be a stretch. But, you can chill near boiling wort fairly quick with your tap potable water and a circulation pump. After it is down in the lower ranges you can switch to glycol. However that is a tricky thing to accomplish with a plate chiller. Even though an immersion chiller is considered "amateur", it really is the best way to go for anything under a barrel. (My opinion, of course) So many pro brewers wish they had a giant immersion coil for wort chill. No sanitation issues, less chemicals. No putzing around with a plate. I would be happy to draw a simple diagram for your piping, if you wish. It's what I do for a living. I don't mind giving a bit of knowledge away.

 

[Deadalus]

...
Well, I think that it is possible, as long as I do not use a standard chiller design and, instead, employ a bath/tank-design. But, my main problem is the logic/engineering of triggering the pump to come on just in case any solenoid opens. I have no idea how to do this.
...

My home heating is a radiant heat system which is setup basically the same as you want to set up your cooling system. I have an electric furnace, one circulator pump, and four zones with zone valves. There are four thermostats which when any one thermostat calls for heat, the pump engages, the furnace turns on, and the zone valve for that thermostat opens. I was just adding a component to the system 2 months ago, I think I know the answer to your question but it is late and I will have to look at the furnace and zone controller schematics again carefully so I tell you the answer correctly.

 

[SanPancho]

you dont want pressure. you want flow. pond pumps work fine because they have a ton of flow, not head.

first in last out is not a gimmick or something to ignore (assuming you're more than 5-7 vessels) its physics and hydraulics. tried and tested all over the world. but there's also some guy on the internet who says it aint worth it.....

asco red hats are not in any way shape or form a requirement. we have solenoids that are now over 10 years old and were bought off the shelf and still work flawlessly. be oversold at your own (wallet's) peril.

ask a chiller manufacturer to quote you a chiller for your tanks, then one for your tanks AND dual stage glycol for your HX. watch what happens to the quote.

your cooling abilities are based on calculated FLOW (from your pump) that meets the demand based on your vessels. sticking with 1" tubing over 1/2" just because somebody on the internet says to do it is not the proper way to design your system if you're so focused on efficiency.

go over to probrewer and check out the classifieds. see how many guys spent a ton of coin and bought the fanciest stuff they could and are now selling for pennies on the dollar. they blew it all on fancy gear and had nothing left in the tank. "cheap" means low cost. it also can mean shoddy quality. it is NOT a requirement that both things must apply at the same time.

 

[Michael K]

That plate chiller in the diagram looks pretty interesting. I don't think that I have seen one quite like it. What is that thing?

Yes, the Asco valve is a very reliable valve. As Mike stated above, having the chiller pull double duty could be a stretch. But, you can chill near boiling wort fairly quick with your tap potable water and a circulation pump. After it is down in the lower ranges you can switch to glycol. However that is a tricky thing to accomplish with a plate chiller. Even though an immersion chiller is considered "amateur", it really is the best way to go for anything under a barrel. (My opinion, of course) So many pro brewers wish they had a giant immersion coil for wort chill. No sanitation issues, less chemicals. No putzing around with a plate. I would be happy to draw a simple diagram for your piping, if you wish. It's what I do for a living. I don't mind giving a bit of knowledge away.

Hi Homegah,

Wow! That is a really nice offer and I would certainly appreciate it. I better, in that case, explain the proposed setup.

There are currently four vessels that would be hooked up to such a loop, with the possibility of adding a fifth (a Brite tank). One of these vessels is the 50L Braumeister unit which is on wheels. The idea with this thing is to use an immersion chiller to bring the wort temperature down below 100 F (or maybe below 90 F) and then "switch" to running glycol through its built-in jacket. This means that I would need to have the ability to connect and disconnect it from the glycol line. Alternatively, perhaps I could just use a separate line and submersible pump for this function. The Braumeister is set up to use a quick disconnect like a Gardena fitting (which I already own). In any case, the Braumeister has to move around. The other thing is that the 60L fermenters currently sit on a low table. But I don't have a SIP system. To clean them I have to empty them and lower them to the ground, clean them out and put them back on the table. It's a bit mickey mouse, but I don't currently have a better idea. As for Mike's plate chiller. I was admiring it. But I have no intention of using such a thing. As you note, immersion chillers have many virtues.

 

[Deadalus]

My home heating is a radiant heat system which is setup basically the same as you want to set up your cooling system. I have an electric furnace, one circulator pump, and four zones with zone valves. There are four thermostats which when any one thermostat calls for heat, the pump engages, the furnace turns on, and the zone valve for that thermostat opens. I was just adding a component to the system 2 months ago, I think I know the answer to your question but it is late and I will have to look at the furnace and zone controller schematics again carefully so I tell you the answer correctly.

What you are describing is switches wired in parallel. If you look at this post, it shows two heating systems where one his multiple zone circulators (first figure) and the second has a central circulator and uses zone control valves. I have the latter, and there is a picture in that thread of my heating system. The green box is a zone controller. Four separate thermostats feed into the controller and then the appropriate zone control valve opens. Any call for heat will turn on the furnace and the pump. That's the basics, the firing of the furnace is further controlled by an aquastat and an outdoor reset (recently added, not in picture).

If you read through that thread note that I originally thought the end switch was describing the logic of how the pump comes on but the main concept is that the thermostats are acting like parallel switches then the signal goes to the end switch. The zone controller is ~$150, I am not recommending it necessarily for your application but rather you could get the schematics of one to study how it works. They are really just a neat and tidy way to put the wiring together. You could potentially control the system with something like a Raspberry Pi too.

 

[Michael K]

My home heating is a radiant heat system which is setup basically the same as you want to set up your cooling system. I have an electric furnace, one circulator pump, and four zones with zone valves. There are four thermostats which when any one thermostat calls for heat, the pump engages, the furnace turns on, and the zone valve for that thermostat opens. I was just adding a component to the system 2 months ago, I think I know the answer to your question but it is late and I will have to look at the furnace and zone controller schematics again carefully so I tell you the answer correctly.

Although I may, in the end, have to run with the default 24/7 pump, I am certainly interested in any information regarding this matter that you might care to send my way. Regards.

 

[Deadalus]

I will just mention some things I learned remodeling my heating system, as there are parallels to cooling with glycol. The furnace (the plant) has a maximum BTU output. In order to deliver that using hot water, your pipes need to be a certain size. I have 1 1/4" iron pipe out of the furnace which converts to 1" Pex pipe after the pump into the manifold. Each of my zones is 3/4" Pex from the manifold on. Each zone delivers to 2-4 radiators. There's a supply loop and and a return loop. The non-terminal radiators in each zone tee off the supply and return loops with 1/2" pex. Those is acceptable because 1/2" can deliver the necessary BTUs to the single radiators, while the the 3/4" pex is required to get the whole zone the required BTU's for all the radiators on the zone. One of my zones is conceptually similar to the picture that @Mike Howard posted, except my supply lines are bigger. The other difference being that he has a solenoid valve controlling flow to each fermenter, and my zone has a zone control valve at the beginning of the zone loop. His allows for individual fermenter control, whereas my kids fight about the thermostat because one room is smaller than the other and one child repeatedly changes the radiator valve in their room.

The reductions in pipe size are there to reduce the cost of the fittings, pipe, and ease of installation.

With supply and return loops like this, the supply fluid temperature to the second unit will be close to that of the first, it's only modified by losses from the supply pipe between the two.

Baseboard heating is often run from one fixture to the next, where the water doesn't return immediately after the fixture. There you need to carefully balance the system and I don't at all think that's what a brewer might want to do for different batches. Maybe that sort of plan works if modified in some situations and breweries. Like splitting a batch into multiple FV's and maybe a small loop at the fermentation vessel.

Here's an ok link to illustrate some piping systems.

 

[Michael K]

I will just mention some things I learned remodeling my heating system, as there are parallels to cooling with glycol. The furnace (the plant) has a maximum BTU output. In order to deliver that using hot water, your pipes need to be a certain size. I have 1 1/4" iron pipe out of the furnace which converts to 1" Pex pipe after the pump into the manifold. Each of my zones is 3/4" Pex from the manifold on. Each zone delivers to 2-4 radiators. There's a supply loop and and a return loop. The non-terminal radiators in each zone tee off the supply and return loops with 1/2" pex. Those is acceptable because 1/2" can deliver the necessary BTUs to the single radiators, while the the 3/4" pex is required to get the whole zone the required BTU's for all the radiators on the zone. One of my zones is conceptually similar to the picture that @Mike Howard posted, except my supply lines are bigger. The other difference being that he has a solenoid valve controlling flow to each fermenter, and my zone has a zone control valve at the beginning of the zone loop. His allows for individual fermenter control, whereas my kids fight about the thermostat because one room is smaller than the other and one child repeatedly changes the radiator valve in their room.

The reductions in pipe size are there to reduce the cost of the fittings, pipe, and ease of installation.

With supply and return loops like this, the supply fluid temperature to the second unit will be close to that of the first, it's only modified by losses from the supply pipe between the two.

Baseboard heating is often run from one fixture to the next, where the water doesn't return immediately after the fixture. There you need to carefully balance the system and I don't at all think that's what a brewer might want to do for different batches. Maybe that sort of plan works if modified in some situations and breweries. Like splitting a batch into multiple FV's and maybe a small loop at the fermentation vessel.

Here's an ok link to illustrate some piping systems.

Maybe I am off base, but what you wrote made me think of large air flow heating systems that you sometimes see on the ceiling of restaurants and other places. In these systems the pipe gets increasingly small as it nears the end of the run. I will take a close look at the piping systems diagram. I thank you very much for your input.

 

[Mike Howard]

Maybe I am off base, but what you wrote made me think of large air flow heating systems that you sometimes see on the ceiling of restaurants and other places. In these systems the pipe gets increasingly small as it nears the end of the run. I will take a close look at the piping systems diagram. I thank you very much for your input.

You won't need to change your piping size as you go down the chain. I would guess nearly every brewery has the design like I have shown. Brewery feed lines are actually much larger, but the drop to each fermenter is a standard size. This is true for 1 to many fermenters in the line.

The concept is that cold glycol circulates through the system all of the time and only when a solenoid opens does glycol enter the jacket. This is the reason for the regulator. When all of the solenoids open, there is little to no return glycol through the regulator and also why First In Last Out is so important. When all of the solenoids are closed, the regulator opens and allows the glycol to return. This maintains system cooling and efficiency by having constantly circulating cold glycol.

In fact, I would guess that having a pump that only comes on when glycol is asked for, in a large system, is very inefficient, because the stale glycol in the lines has heated up and will cause the tank temperature to be erratic, not to mention a large influx of warm glycol into the reservoir. Also, the wear and tear on the motor, every time it has to start up, will eventually cause premature failure. The motors on these large glycol chillers are designed to run continuously.

On one of my systems, I have 3 fermenters and 1 brite tank on a single chiller (like this), each operating at different temp settings, i.e. Conditioning, Cold Crash, Ale Fermenting, Lager Fermenting, etc... It is set up just like my photos and in fact using the same lines when I switched from plastic fermenters to the SS Brewtech fermenters. I hear the solenoids clicking on and off all day long. I'd hate for my pump motor to be trying to keep up with all of that.

On the homebrew scale the Blichmann, SS Brewtech and Brewbuilt Glycol Chillers handle this, in part, because they expect the cooling lines to be short. There isn't enough glycol in the lines to cause adverse temperature changes in the tank and the pumps are fairly cheap and easily replaced, so premature failure is not really a concern and since there are multiple pumps, your whole system isn't down when one fails.

I also have a setup like this using four 1 BBL fermenters and the BrewBuilt IceMaster Max 4 Glycol Chiller. The set up works great as long as I don't try to Cold Crash two tanks at the same time in the summer (the chiller doesn't have a very big reservoir), winter is a little more forgiving. I run the chiller at -6F and it can handle the four tanks, controlling temps in the mid 60's, in a non temp controlled warehouse. My lines range in length from two to six feet away from the chiller, so I'm not concerned about tank temp fluctuations.

 

[Michael K]

You won't need to change your piping size as you go down the chain. I would guess nearly every brewery has the design like I have shown. Brewery feed lines are actually much larger, but the drop to each fermenter is a standard size. This is true for 1 to many fermenters in the line.

This is good information. I have yet to think seriously about pipe sizes. I feel a little apologetic for my ignorance, as I know that these issues are well understood among the "brewing class" of citizen. ;-)

The concept is that cold glycol circulates through the system all of the time and only when a solenoid opens does glycol enter the jacket. This is the reason for the regulator. When all of the solenoids open, there is little to no return glycol through the regulator and also why First In Last Out is so important. When all of the solenoids are closed, the regulator opens and allows the glycol to return. This maintains system cooling and efficiency by having constantly circulating cold glycol.

Thank you. I have yet to sort out which particular solenoids to purchase, which regulator to purchase, and where locate everything.

In fact, I would guess that having a pump that only comes on when glycol is asked for, in a large system, is very inefficient, because the stale glycol in the lines has heated up and will cause the tank temperature to be erratic, not to mention a large influx of warm glycol into the reservoir. Also, the wear and tear on the motor, every time it has to start up, will eventually cause premature failure. The motors on these large glycol chillers are designed to run continuously.

On one of my systems, I have 3 fermenters and 1 brite tank on a single chiller (like this), each operating at different temp settings, i.e. Conditioning, Cold Crash, Ale Fermenting, Lager Fermenting, etc... It is set up just like my photos and in fact using the same lines when I switched from plastic fermenters to the SS Brewtech fermenters. I hear the solenoids clicking on and off all day long. I'd hate for my pump motor to be trying to keep up with all of that.

Yes, I sent a email message to Penguin chillers and the reply which I received suggested that I "contact the pump manufacturer and make sure it's suitable to be turned on/off repeatedly - many times those motors do best when left running since that's what they were designed for, a high cycle count might lead to shorter life." This line of thinking has gotten me to abandon my notion of a motor that does not run constantly. So now I need to choose a decent chiller, I am thinking in the 2300 Btu/hr or (1/3 hp) range, which is probably overkill. Suggestions are welcome.

On the homebrew scale the Blichmann, SS Brewtech and Brewbuilt Glycol Chillers handle this, in part, because they expect the cooling lines to be short. There isn't enough glycol in the lines to cause adverse temperature changes in the tank and the pumps are fairly cheap and easily replaced, so premature failure is not really a concern and since there are multiple pumps, your whole system isn't down when one fails.

I also have a setup like this using four 1 BBL fermenters and the BrewBuilt IceMaster Max 4 Glycol Chiller. The set up works great as long as I don't try to Cold Crash two tanks at the same time in the summer (the chiller doesn't have a very big reservoir), winter is a little more forgiving. I run the chiller at -6F and it can handle the four tanks, controlling temps in the mid 60's, in a non temp controlled warehouse. My lines range in length from two to six feet away from the chiller, so I'm not concerned about tank temp fluctuations.

I have looked at all these chillers, but think that, if I am going to run this kind of semi-professional single loop system, I might as well choose a chiller that is already built to handle it. This is leading me to "power-pack" type chillers; again, suggestions are welcome. Thank you for the input.

 

[Deadalus]

Looks like the pump on off issue is settled. I did want to mention though that there's not a lot of fluid in the pipes. Consider that Icemaster Max 4, the tank is 8 gallons. If you are using 3/8" ID tubing (it has 3/8" OD barbs), the volume in a foot of tubing is 1.325 cu. in. which converts to 0.734 fluid ounces or 7.34 fl. oz in 10 feet, which is less than a cup. There and back (20'), that is about 2 cups out of 8 gallons, or 1/64 of the tank. Now there is some fluid in the cooling coils of the fermenters but that's trapped until the valve opens anyway so not affected by whether the pump is on or off to the supply lines. On a large system maybe could be an issue but probably also scaled up tankwise too in proportion to greater diameter lines.

As far as pipe sizes, considering that chiller again, the barbs are 3/8" outer diameter so 3/8" ID tubing to begin with. Several temperature coils I looked at also use 3/8" tubing for under 1 barrel. Plus the chiller is only 3200 btus. I couldn't really find anything regarding the btus on a temperature coil. Doesn't seem like you would really change the pipe diameter much for a system with a small number of fermenters using this chiller. If all the fermenters temp coils were the same size, you need one size of pipe to deliver that many btus to each fermenter singly. Then you need one size of pipe to distribute all of the btus from the chiller. So two pipe sizes max there. My heating system steps down because of zoning and then multiple radiators on a zone. I have 4 zones and 13 rads, with the rads about 4-6000 btus roughly but the furnace is 82,000 btus. Plus the pipes need to go through the walls at different points.

 

[Mike Howard]

Yea, on my small system, where the pumps turn on and off when needed, I see no change or erratic behavior in temperature, even in the summer here in Texas. Those lines are small and the distance is short.

I think the brewery lines I have seen are 1.5 inch or maybe 2 inches and the tanks are very far away from the Chiller itself. The main glycol line in the ceiling looks much bigger than the drops, but I'm not certain of its size...4 inch maybe? Plus I'm sure the reservoir is quite large and could handle a change? But either way, those pumps don't turn off, so its moot.