Getting Started With Mead and Melomel

[Stephmon]

Hello formum-ites,
Since I'm new here, I'll introduce myself. I live in NorCal with the Mrs. and our young boys. I was introduced to mead on a business trip to Vilnius, in Lithuania.

Zagares (not to be confused with Zalgaris), Starka (grain vodka), Trejos Devynerios (Bitters made with 27 herbs), Maluniniku (Bitters, Herb Brandy), Krupnikas (spiced honey liqueur)

Žalgiris is sort of infamous there.

"75.0% stiprumo midaus balzamas" translates as 75% strength mead balsam.

As I begin to think about retirement, I started to look into bee keeping as a hobby and making mead seemed a natural extension of that. I'm not ready to set up hives just yet, but when I saw how easy it could be getting started on mead, I decided to give it a try.

To start, I watched a bunch of YouTube and acquired the essential hardware (4x 1-gallon jugs, airlocks, tubing, yeast, etc.) and made a plan. I started the batches on 9/8 and 9/9 and so far, I've racked once (and snuck a few sips of the melomel, which didn't disappoint). I will be back with updates, observations and questions. Constructive feedback is always welcome.

The plan: Two 1-gallon batches. One 'straight' mead and one dark cherry melomel. I figure the melomel will be delicious at just about any point beyond finishing its ferment and I can try it, at various ages, while I take more time with the mead.

The recipes:
Batch 1 (1 Gallon)
Honey Virgin California Wildflower Honey
Amount (honey) 3 lbs
Yeast Red Star Côte des Blancs
Sanitizer Sodium Metabisulphite
Clarifier Bentonite
Yeast Nutrient Yes
Yeast Energizer Yes
Acid Blend Yes
Wine Tannin Yes
Pectic Enzyme Yes (oops, probably unnecessary)
Fruit No
Notes Strong CO2 Bubbles 3/sec after 12 hours

Batch 2 (1 Gallon)
Honey "Virgin California Sage Honey"
Amount (honey) 3 lbs
Yeast Lalvin 71B-1122
Sanitizer Sodium Metabisulphite
Clarifier Bentonite
Yeast Nutrient Yes
Yeast Energizer Yes
Acid Blend Yes
Wine Tannin Yes
Pectic Enzyme Yes
Fruit Dark Sweet Cherries (Whole Foods frozen)
Notes Pre-mixed Bentonite with water for better result. Used juicer, might be better to use blender. 'Cap' knocked down by 'swirling' after one week.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hiya Stephmon - and welcome. Looks as though you are certainly on the right tracks. But a couple of quick comments that you can dismiss without any problem.
1. Sweet cherries often result in a kind of cough medicine-like flavor. Not certain if that tends to be more likely if the alcohol levels are high or the mead/wines are finished sweeter with insufficient acidity. but it is something to watch for. A better alternative might be sour cherries.
2. Your recipe format looks more like a brewer's recipe (everything done at one time) rather than a wine maker's recipe - where you might add , say "acid blend" just before bottling and not with the yeast. Honey, as you may know, does not have any chemical buffers that control the pH during fermentation so the pH of mead often drops quite precipitously as the yeast convert the honey to ethanol and CO2. The upshot of that is that the fermentation can stall because yeast cannot do any fermentation if the pH drops below about 3.0 - and the upshot of THAT is that most seasoned mead makers only add additional acidity to taste (before bottling) and not when they pitch the yeast. And that said, (and not everyone will agree) acid blend is a bit like going with the lowest common denominator. Every fruit has its dominant acids - With apples - it's malic, with lemons its citric, and with grapes its tartaric. I think - but am not certain - that with most varieties of cherry the dominant acid is malic (so 71B yeast is a good choice) so adding tartaric and citric alters the flavor perhaps unnecessarily...
Last point, if this is still quite early I would use something to stir the fruit into the must a couple of times a day rather than wait a week. The fruit, as it dries out atop the must may begin to spoil (rot) and that spoilage may impart undesirable flavors and/ or could prevent the CO2 produced by the yeast from being expelled and that additional physical pressure on the cells of yeast may place undue stress on the critters and their response may be to produce off flavors...

 

[Stephmon]

Hello and thank you for the welcome and the tips. I will most definitely be experimenting with a lot of ideas, as it seems there are as many approaches to this, as there are mead makers. Some of my thoughts on your points.

1. The Zageres I sampled in Vilnius (and brought a bottle home) actually had a certain cough syrup quality. It may be an 'unsophisticated' taste, but I'm a firm believer that the "Best" [insert beverage, or any other subjective experience] is the one that the individual enjoys. If it turns out to be cloyingly sweet, that may be fine, because it will be sipped in small quantities. Unless it goes bad, the little sample I snuck seemed perfectly drinkable. I will put sour cherries on the list, for alternatives, if this batch isn't a hit.
2. My approach for these first attempts are straight off of YouTube, so I welcome the opportunity to learn about the in's and out's of different chemistries. I'll put your notes into my though process, as I prepare to head into the next batch (likely next weekend).
3. I happened upon a mention of fruit capping a week into the ferment. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to have had any negative effects, but now that I understand the dangers, I will approach it with more frequent knock down's. I will also look at adjusting my approach to the initial 'blow-up', as I think I unnecessarily gave myself waaay too much head space, after the initial blow (it never repeated, and after the first racking, I ended up with barely 1/2-gallon).
I'm sure I made a bunch of sub-optimal newbie decisions. Hopefully, as I was very careful about sanitizing, I'm not in epic fail territory.

As with a lot of endeavors, it seems there are levels of risk with various approaches (my early understanding, by no means thoroughly vetted)...

Here be dragons: Sanitize, sanitize, sanitize, use of airlock, preventing stall
Could go either way Minimizing head space after racking (oxidation), 'young' recipes, bread yeast recipes.
Dexter's Lab getting selective about yeast varietals, honey types, additive chemistry, etc.
Voodoo Stone vs. Glass bottles, cork vs. swing-top (plastic vs. ceramic)

This might be a fun list for the group to run with, refine, etc....

 

[bernardsmith]

Just one more comment - you need to watch with ceramic that there is no lead in the glaze and that the bottles have been made in recent years to ensure that there will be very little likelihood of any chemicals leaching in contact with the acids and alcohol in your mead.

 

[Stephmon]

Some years ago, I discovered that domestic Grolsch tastes much better than what we get in the states. I'm not certain, but it seemed to me that a telltale was that the swingtop was plastic for the exported and ceramic for what I found in Europe.

In terms of bottles I actually intend to use... I found a nice Belgian beer that comes in a stone bottle, with a swing-top. Those will be my 'do not open until..." bottles (for as long as that plan may last).

 

[bernardsmith]

The contents of "domestic" bottles may be fresher, may be transported over shorter distances and may be stored under better conditions but yes, the packaging may be superior.

 

[Stephmon]

Being an engineer by trade, I tend to find aspects of each of my various hobbies to analyze with various tools. In this case, I wanted to monitor the general health of my yeast, through the ferment cycle with maths. My understanding from the initial research I've done is that a 'healthy' ferment, for these recipes will bubble actively, slowing to about one bubble each 5 minutes, after about 4 weeks. I was able to track it closely, over the first two weeks and it appeared to be on track, or maybe even a bit better. Then, I had to travel and by week 5, the bubbles were somewhere in the neighborhood of one each 15 minutes (reasonably close to the trend line).

So, after about 12 hours, the melomel was bubbling along at 3 per minute, slowing to about one every 3 minutes, by day 16. If it stayed roughly with the trendline, it was right on track, though I guess I won't know directly, since I was away. It will be interesting to follow a ferment through the complete cycle.

For those who are curious, the fit is a 2nd order polynomial with an R^2 of ~0.95 (the equation is included in the picture). Interestingly, where the ferment began to depart from the trend line, it was actually getting a second wind, but then 2 days later, it was a bit behind. Just goes to prove, theory and reality are always the same... in theory.

 

[bernardsmith]

What peer reviewed published literature is there that discusses the bubble count as a reliable /accurate indicator of the health of the fermentation? Does it discuss controlling the ambient room temperature, the temperature of the fermenting solution, or the viscosity of the liquid in the airlock - and the smoothness or roughness of the inside surface of the bubbler? The height of the airlock above the level of the solution inside the fermenter? The action of particles nucleating the CO2 in solution? I would think that the number of variables in any sample would preclude any valid usage of bubbles as an indicator, but I could be very wrong. I am not an engineer.

 

[Stephmon]

It was published by "some guy on the internet" who said something along the lines of "After a month, that bubbling will slow down to about 1 every 5 minutes". I wanted to see if I was on track to that, so I took a timing at about the same time every day. More for interest (and the fact that I didn't have a starting S.G. measurement, to help figure out whether my ferment was done) than a shot at the Nobel.

 

[Stephmon]

Speaking of my ferment. I just completed my second racking a few minutes ago. Both batches appear to be pretty much done bubbling. They both smell fantastic, though not quite what I expected. The straight mead has a hint of orange, with honey, though it wasn't an orange blossom honey (at least according to the label, it was 'Wild Flower'). The Cherry melomel strikes me as having a hint of grape, which immediately brings communion wine to mind... I wonder how that will evolve with ageing.
I now have a hydrometer, so though I don't know my starting S.G., I know them now...
Mead = 1.003 @ 74F
Melomel = 1.024 @ 74F

Since I'm a newbie, I'm not sure quite what to expect at this point. Am I on track? Stalled? Should I attempt to re-start one, or both? Let them be? Sit and cry?

UPDATE: After sampling a glass of the melomel, with my wife, I have no fears about the alcohol content. It's firmly in wine territory.

 

[Stephmon]

I found a Mead calculator online and plugged in my recipes. If I worked it out right, and my honey is in the ballpark of the calculator's assumptions for sugar content... It would seem my OG would have been approximately 1.12 for the mead and 1.155 for the melomel.
Doing the standard calculation from OG-FG, that would seem to estimate an ABV of 15.6% & 17.6%. Is that realistic, or am I clearly not getting at the right approximations?

 

[Stephmon]

I was on the verge of buying a rotary degassing tool, when I came across descriptions of vacuum degassing. So, I raided my 1/4" tubing connectors and valves. I then went to the internet, to shop for a vacuum ejector (creates vacuum via Venturi effect, when you run compressed air through it) and a vacuum gauge. The hose on the left is the incoming compressed air. The 1/4" tubing on the top right is the vacuum line, which I've split to the two carboys. The 1/4" tubing going off the bottom right, carries the ejected air out into the garage, to reduce the hissing noise in our kitchen. The black valve controls the incoming compressed air and the blue valve lets me hold the maximum vacuum in the carboys (about -0.9 Bar), giving the compressor an occasional rest.

Some of the vacuum degassing videos I've seen show the wine seeming to boil, with lots of big bubbles. Mine looked more like a glass of champagne, probably since my ferment is so far along. Those little guys at the top of the mead are the 'champagne' bubbles, with degass in process..

 

[bernardsmith]

You can always guestimate the SG even if you have not measured the density (gravity) of the must. One pound of honey dissolved in water to make 1 gallon will have a gravity of 1.035 (+/-) and 2 lbs dissolved in water to make 1 gallon (NOT , added to 1 gallon of water) will have a gravity of 1.070. Fruit juices are generally around 1.045 (more or less) so mixing honey in say apple juice (1 lb to make 1 gallon ) will give you a starting gravity of approx 1.080.

I would treat the fellow on the internet who claimed that there is some significant correlation between bubbles /minute and fermentation rate /completion as someone who also communicated with the Loch Ness monster and Big Foot. Some people speak nonsense and some garbage. You decide which that is.

 

[madscientist451]

I've learned lots by listening to podcasts about brewing/mead+cider making.
Basic Brewing Radio has several podcasts on about mead.
The Mead House has 60+ episodes and is 100% mead .
The owner meadmaker at Groenfell meadery in Vermont , has video podcasts, blogs and recipes: https://www.groennfell.com/blog

Hope that helps

 

[Stephmon]

You can always guestimate the SG even if you have not measured the density (gravity) of the must. One pound of honey dissolved in water to make 1 gallon will have a gravity of 1.035 (+/-) and 2 lbs dissolved in water to make 1 gallon (NOT , added to 1 gallon of water) will have a gravity of 1.070. Fruit juices are generally around 1.045 (more or less) so mixing honey in say apple juice (1 lb to make 1 gallon ) will give you a starting gravity of approx 1.080.

In my case, I put 3 pounds of honey into about 0.9 Gal in the case of the mead and 0.7 Gal in the case of the melomel (largely, because I poured off a bit too much, after the initial blow-up, and the cherry meat took up so much volume). So, 1.12 and 1.155 seem pretty reasonable, relative to the numbers you've given.

I would treat the fellow on the internet who claimed that there is some significant correlation between bubbles /minute and fermentation rate /completion as someone who also communicated with the Loch Ness monster and Big Foot. Some people speak nonsense and some garbage. You decide which that is.

I just figured, since I was doing the same recipe and his worked out, if I had a similar bubble rate, at the same point in time (as opposed to one bubble every 25 minutes, or quitting completely in week 3, for instance), the odds are good my yeast was reasonably on track to expectation. As a point of interest, I plan on plotting future ferments on the same graph and see what sort of correlation there might be to SG progress (do dryer finishes have a slower deceleration, for instance). I figure, as long as I have a glass in my hand, while I'm running the stopwatch, it is time well spent. If I see zero 'signal' for my efforts, I'll pick something else to let loose my obsessive nature on.

 

[Stephmon]

Degassed, neutralized, degassed again, over the past few days and when I saw there was no more CO2 to be drawn out, I bottled. The repurposed Crystal head skulls make for a great Halloween themed vessel for the dark cherry melomel (I’m calling it Vikingblød, and yes, I know there is a Danish beer called that, I like the name). To my best estimation, they're both "semi-dry". I believe they are in the estimated range of 14-15% ABV, but with plenty of their component flavors left to enjoy. They're still far too young, so the mead will be aged in the bottle, for as long as our self discipline will hold up. The first bottle of melomel will be a Halloween beverage. The second, might make it to Thanksgiving.

I'm not terribly nervous about 'bottle bombs', but I plan on 'burping' the swing tops (release the cage tension, just enough that they can 'hiss', if they're going to and then restore the tension), perhaps at 1 week and again at 3 weeks, just in case.

 

[Stephmon]

Today, I came across Wild Raspberry and Olallieberry (blackberry) local honeys. So, it seemed only natural to try them as Raspberry and Blackberry melomels...
I'm a little concerned about clearing, as I ended up with more of a puree than I was intending. I'm also a bit nervous about seeds and tannins, but we shall see.

 

[Stephmon]

And, in case you were wondering... No, that was not enough head space for the fruit.

 

[Stephmon]

Here are the recipes
Start 11/4/2017
Batch 3 (1 Gallon)
Honey Virgin California Wild Raspberry Honey
Amount (honey) 3 lbs
Yeast Red Star Côte des Blancs
Sanitizer Sodium Metabisulphite
Clarifier Not in Primary
Yeast Nutrient Yes
Yeast Energizer Yes
Acid Blend No
Wine Tannin No
Pectic Enzyme Yes
Fruit 3lbs Red Raspberries (Whole Foods Frozen)"
Notes Used blender, got more of a puree than expecting. Took a lot of shaking to mix honey and puree. Mix foamed and blew off overnight, took longer to bubble as vigorously as BlackBerry. Swirling down cap, as needed
SSG 1.119

Start 11/4/2017
Batch 4 (1 Gallon)
Honey Virgin California Ollalieberry Honey
Amount (honey) 3 lbs
Yeast Red Star Côte des Blancs
Sanitizer Sodium Metabisulphite
Clarifier Not in Primary
Yeast Nutrient Yes
Yeast Energizer Yes
Acid Blend No
Wine Tannin No
Pectic Enzyme Yes
Fruit 3lbs Blackberries (Whole Foods frozen)
Notes Used blender, got more of a puree than expecting. Swirling down cap, as needed
SSG 1.119

 

[Dandi]

Hi Stephmom, sorry to hear you had trouble with the lack of head space! Still, I hope it goes well, and I'm interested to see how they come out. I'm going to follow the thread. Best of luck!

 

[Stephmon]

Thank you Dandi,
They've both settled down now and if anything, I've now got too much head space. With the lees and a few inches of fruit purée on top of that, I'll be lucky to get much more than a half-gallon of each. The iPhone does a poor job of representing it, but they are both beautiful, rich, dark shades of their respective fruits. The caps have sunk, but there is a 'snow' of raspberry seeds floating, which I suspect might never sink (perhaps for the better, from the standpoint of flavor?)

So, when I ran across these at Smart and Final the other night, I thought it would be a perfect solution to both the issue of blow out and small volumes in my secondary.

At about $7 ea., My new primary fermenting containers are a bit more expensive than buying food grade buckets and lids. But, I like that they are far more transparent (so I can keep track of whether the fruit cap has eventually sunk) and the lid is designed to seal air-tight and stay that way over many uses. I thought of getting 6 qt. containers, but I thought that might be cutting it a little too close.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I am keeping track of my bubble timing, just out of an interest in what might be learned there.

You can see the bubble timings from each of my three melomels. The dark blue, rising on the left, is my blackberry. The red dots in the middle series are the cherry (previous batch) and the red circles represent my raspberry.
As it stands, the blackberry started off as vigorously as the other two, but began slowing down about 2 days sooner than the cherry did. I would actually be more concerned, if I weren't tracking it along with the cherry because, as you can see, the raspberry is still going gangbusters at 17 days and producing about 4x as many bubbles. It will be interesting to see, whether the trend continues, or whether the raspberry 'crashes' harder toward the end. Will the final ABV's reflect the trends I see here? We shall see.

 

[Stephmon]

Today, I racked my primaries to the secondary. As expected, I got about 1/2 gallon of each, after lees and fruit solids were abandoned.
I measured the SG at 1.007 (~15.2% ABV) for the raspberry and 1.012 (~14.5% AVB) for the blackberry. I am suspicious of the blackberry measurement, because of how cloudy my sample was (not wanting to waste precious melomel, I let the carboy settle for an hour after racking and tried to 'skim' enough off the top to get a measurement). I have to think that the extra solids suspended in the sample would raise the SG reading, perhaps as much as the difference between the two batch measurements). Yet another plus for switching to my new primary ferment containers.

In terms of C02 production, the bubble timings hit a pretty clear 'wall' at about 22 days. Beyond 5 minutes per bubble, the effects of temperature and ambient barometric pressure take over (a bubble can lose ground to an approaching high pressure front, faster than it is being produced). Interestingly the blackberry, which decelerated sooner, does appear to have realized less of its alcohol potential. No real conclusions to be drawn, but I'm thinking that with enough data, I might be able to make myself a rule-of-thumb 'expectations' chart, that would allow me to estimate the relative vitality of my ferment, on a given day (for a given container, and 'family' of recipes, etc.). Or maybe not, we'll see.

 

[Stephmon]

Sampled a bit with the wife last night. They are both very promising, tasty, no 'off' flavors or smells but, will hopefully benefit from some 'balancing' that ageing should bring. Both taste just a little on the 'hot' side, leading with alcohol, then their respective fruit flavors. The honey flavors are lost in the mix, at this point. The blackberry has an interesting and rather pleasing sour note, to its fruit taste.
Come bottling time, we have determined that at least one beer-sized bottle will be a mix of the two, as they went together nicely.
Time to let time do its thing and report back later.

 

[Stephmon]

After degassing, stabilizing, degassing again, over the past two weeks, I bottled this morning.
Finishing gravity for the Raspberry is 1.005 and for the Blackberry 1.010 for estimated ABV of 15.5% and 14.8% respectively.
They both lead with sour fruit and alcohol, and almost zero honey/sweet. I'm hopeful that they will balance out with ageing and recover at least a little of the sweetness. If not, I plan to have a sweeter traditional mead on hand to blend them with, at drinking time.
Up next, I plan a mango and another dark sweet cherry, in the new primary buckets.

 

[Stephmon]

Started two new batches tonight, in the new primary buckets. One batch of sweet, dark cherry, which is essentially the same recipe as my first cherry melomel, except I put the cherry meat in a sanitized bag (Nut Milk bag, weighted with glass beads) and added water to 1.5 Gal (about .25 Gal of which is the cherry meat). This will tend toward a slightly lower ABV (about 13%, vs. 15%), but should give me significantly more final volume of wine (a full gallon, maybe slightly more, vs. ~3/5ths) and all but eliminate head space in the secondary (1 gal glass carboy).
The second batch is mango. Sticking close to my methods, I used 3 lbs. Orange Blossom honey, 3 lbs. frozen mango chunks (pureed and bagged) and filled to 1.5 Gal. Both batches use Lalvin 71B-1122 and I plan to stagger the nutrient and energizer, over 4 servings.

 

[Stephmon]

Here is a quick pic of the two latest batches, just 3 days old. Mango and Dark Sweet Cherry melomels, happily bubbling away in my new primary containers.

 

[Stephmon]

Here are the recipes...
Start 12/16/2017
Batch 5 (1.5 Gallon)
Honey Virgin California Sage Honey
Amount (honey) 3 lbs
Yeast Lalvin 71B-1122
Sanitizer Sodium Metabisulphite
Clarifier Not in Primary
Yeast Nutrient Yes (Staggered)
Yeast Energizer Yes (Staggered)
Acid Blend No
Wine Tannin No
Pectic Enzyme No
Fruit 3lbs Dark Sweet Cherries (Whole Foods frozen)
Notes 1st batch in primary buckets. Fruit in bag, added water to 1.5 Gal. Pitched yeast and 1/4 of nutrient.
SSG 1.099


Start 12/16/2017
Batch 6 (1.5 Gallon)
Honey Bloom Orange Blossom Honey
Amount (honey) 3 lbs 3 lbs
Yeast Lalvin 71B-1122
Sanitizer Sodium Metabisulphite
Clarifier Not in Primary
Yeast Nutrient Yes (Staggered)
Yeast Energizer Yes (Staggered)
Acid Blend No
Wine Tannin No
Pectic Enzyme No
Fruit 3lbs Mango Chunks (Whole Foods frozen)
Notes 1st batch in primary buckets. Fruit in bag, added water to 1.5 Gal. Pitched yeast and 1/4 of nutrient.
SSG 1.099

 

[Stephmon]

I thought I would pass along a few 'lessons learned' from my recent experimentation...
1) "Nut Milk" bag mesh is too fine for what I was hoping to accomplish. The fruit meat coats the inside of the bag, effectively sealing the holes. As the CO2 collects inside the bag, it blows up like a balloon, ejecting fruit from the draw-string opening and then floats aggressively. My next attempt will be with "Veggie Bags" which have a more open netting and hopefully, overcome these drawbacks.
2) The food storage containers seal, but there is a very slow leak. The airlocks only bubbled for about four days, while the ferment was active enough to overwhelm that leak. This is probably fine, as there is plenty of positive pressure (evidenced by the offset of the liquid in the airlock), while the yeast is getting established. When the ferment slows down, I will be racking to glass jugs, which will have a positive seal. After this batch, I will look into food grade silicone sealant and run a thin bead around just inside the lip of the lid (to contact the top edge of the bucket).
Stay tuned.

 

[bernardsmith]

Paint strainer bags - your local paint store or hardware store likely sells them are what most folk use. There is no draw string but they usually have an elastic band that allows the bag to grip the outside of the fermenting bucket. The mesh is fairly large spaced (don't have the size), and the price is inexpensive. You can get different sizes including 5 gallon.

 

[Stephmon]

Thanks for the tip, Bernard! Happy Holidays!

 

[bernardsmith]

And to you - Happy fermenting.

 

[Stephmon]

Day 43 for the Cherry and Mango Melomels. The Mango shows zero signs of clearing, so I decided to add bentonite, 8 Japanese chilis and take a gravity measurement. The FSG is 0.996, for an estimated ABV of 17.7%

 

[Stephmon]

I got my wife a nice set of wine glasses, as an early Valentine's gift. So, we christened the glasses by opening a bottle from my first wildflower mead batch. It has been in the bottle 5 months and though, it may still be 'young'... It was really quite good. It has an elusive scent of honey, the more you 'chase' it, the more it hides among fruit, floral and (being a bit young) the alcohol notes. The flavor is semi-sweet/semi-dry, very smooth, with a crisp almost pear-like finish. Chilled, it would make a great summer wine.
In the interest of science, I tested the hangover potential and woke this morning feeling a bit out of sorts, but no headache. I can hardly wait, to try at 1 year and beyond.

 

[Stephmon]

This morning, I started two more gallon batches. The first is a Blueberry melomel. The second will be pineapple, but I will wait until the ferment is nearly finished, before adding the fruit in secondary.

From left to right:
Mango and Chili Pepper, in secondary, currently at 63 days.
Dark Sweet Cherry, in secondary, currently at 63 days.
Blueberry (with a lemon), in primary, currently at 1 hour.
Honey 'base' for a Pineapple, in primary, currently at 10 minutes.