Getting frustrated.....Tannins in 3 Batches, Low OG in 1

[ParanoidAndroid]

So I am 4 batches into all grain. All of them suck to say the least. Considering I did 1 Partial Mash before going all grain, and had two bad extract batches before that, I haven't made a drinkable beer in almost a year. I don't even tell people when I brew anymore because they expect beer in a few weeks and I cant produce....so I am seeking help.

For the record this isn't a "hmmm, I think this brown ale is too hoppy" or "this IPA is kind of thin" problem; this is straight up Ass Water.

Mouth puckering astringency tastes are what is present in my first 3 all grains.

The first two I know what happened. I missed my mash temp at about 145. So i put it back on the flame. I monitored the temp but its as though heat built up in the bottom, then released, and my temp quickly shot to 185-190. I assume this is what caused the tannins.

My 3rd (Lil Sparkys Nut Brown) I thought was going to be good. I missed my mash temp and hit 160. So I left the MT open for 20 minutes to get my temp to 154 then covered for an hour. Temp was stable.

I had 11.75 lbs of grain. 1.25 qt/lb puts me at around 3.75 gallons of Strike Water. I got 2.75 gallons of wort out of that, but the last gallon or so, I had to force out. This involved me sucking (no homo) the end of the tube to get a good siphon going. A blew in the tube to release a stuck sparge, then sucked again to siphon. Is this causing tannin extraction? Should the last little bit of wort be left in there?

After getting 2.75 gallons out, I needed 4 gallons to get to 6.75 gallons of total wort. I usually have 1.25 gallons of boiloff, but this time I had 1.75 gallons. I double batch sparged at 2 gallons each with 180 degree water and 185 degree water. I only got the sparge temp to 154 both times.
Everything was filtered before going into the BK. Got the 6.75 gallons needed.

Also, I ran drained the MT wide open with fully open valve. Ive read this should be slower. Would that cause tannin extraction?

Added my hops as needed, irish moss @ 15, IC at 15 minutes to disinfect.

It did take a while to cool. Maybe 30 minutes. And since Im in the south, I couldnt get it past 82 degrees. With it being late and not having time to cool it, I put it in my Ferm Chamber. i pitched the yeast the next morning (about 8 hours later).

I got 78% efficiency. That combined with the higher boiloff rate gave me a higher OG than I wanted, but that should not contribute to this nasty taste.


This latest batch I missed my OG terribly. I hit 1.026 when it should have been 1.054 or so. It was a Wheat with 6 lbs White Wheat and 4 lbs 2 Row and 1 lb rice hulls. I did 1.25 qt/lb. I included Rice Hulls to give me 11 lbs grain @ 1.25 = 13.75 quarts strike and just went with 3.5 gallons.

I didnt siphon with my mouth this time and did a slow trickle from my MT. I only got 1.25 Gallons of first runnings. I assume I left a LOT of wort in there. Now i have a 6 gallon sparge. 3 on fist, 3 on second. I got my 7.25 gallons of wort. Everything I thought was fine till I was cleaning out my MT. There was 1.25 gallons of wort left in the MT. Should I have siphoned the first runnings more? I didnt do it this time bc I figured I was sucking out tannins.

 

[jfk69]

It seems you're having a lot of problems with slow/stuck sparges. Are you using a braided hose or a false bottom? If it's braided hose, it could be collapsing on you, in which case you can roll some copper wire to look like a spring and slide it into the hose to help it maintain it's shape with the grain bed on it.

What are you using to calculate your strike water and mash temperature?
Are you mixing the grain slowly into the strike water?
Are you thoroughly mixing/stirring your mash?

I never use that much hot water in my sparge. If you feel the need to get your mash warmer do a mashout of 1 to 1-1/4 gallons of boiling water before taking your initial runnings. I would think 6 gallons of 180-185 degree water got your grain bed up over 170 degrees, where you will extract tannins from the grain. Not sure this helps, just my quick thoughts.

 

[DSorenson]

I am sorry to hear about your bad luck. I know how that must feel!

My honest recommendation is to make a simple blonde ale. Just 2 row barley and your choice of hops. You avoid stuck sparges and it's simple to work with. Also the flavor profile really allows for a better assessment.

I've read that "cooking" grains can give that tannic problem. That is to say that running water through your MLT that is too hot can extract tannins. I've poured 4.5 gallons of 180 F sparge water into mine without a problem.

The rate at which you lauter should have no effect on tannin extraction. I leave mine at full bore and I have no issues.

The reason why you want to cool the wort quickly, or at least two of them that I'm aware of, is to decrease the DMS in your beer (tastes like creamed corn), and increase your cold break... which is simply protein.

"The Illustrated Guide to Brewing Beer" by Matthew Schaefer says the following:

"While a bitter flavor derived from hops can be desirable, astringent, mouth-puckering flavors, are not. The are often dry, bitter, and can be powdery. The care caused by tannin extraction due to over steeping, over-sparging, or sparging at too hot a temperature. The can also be caused by over-milled grains or a mash pH that exceeds the range of 5.2-5.6. Don't over-hop in the bittering or finishing stanges, as this will also produce high levels of astringency."

I think your sparging method looks fine. I suggest looking at the mash pH or how finely the grains are milled.

Best of luck

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

It seems you're having a lot of problems with slow/stuck sparges. Are you using a braided hose or a false bottom? If it's braided hose, it could be collapsing on you, in which case you can roll some copper wire to look like a spring and slide it into the hose to help it maintain it's shape with the grain bed on it.

What are you using to calculate your strike water and mash temperature?
Are you mixing the grain slowly into the strike water?
Are you thoroughly mixing/stirring your mash?

I never use that much hot water in my sparge. If you feel the need to get your mash warmer do a mashout of 1 to 1-1/4 gallons of boiling water before taking your initial runnings. I would think 6 gallons of 180-185 degree water got your grain bed up over 170 degrees, where you will extract tannins from the grain. Not sure this helps, just my quick thoughts.

Im striking with just 1.25 qt water per pound of grain. All recipes Ive done have called for 153-54 Mash Temp.

I now get my water to 170 then transfer to the MT. Close it and let it settle. It went to 168 upon settling yesterday. Open it until it gets to 166, then add all grains in (not slowly, just dump), it settled at 153.

Yes I am thoroughly mixing.

I am going to calibrate my analog therms today using the ice water method. I got them from BobbyM, but never calibrated them.

I also ordered a ThermaPen which looks to be awesome. I can use that for double checks and a some calibrations.

I have a single tier, 3 vessel system. 1 March Pump. I use a false bottom. All my hardware comes from BobbyM's site Brewhardware.com.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I am sorry to hear about your bad luck. I know how that must feel!

My honest recommendation is to make a simple blonde ale. Just 2 row barley and your choice of hops. You avoid stuck sparges and it's simple to work with. Also the flavor profile really allows for a better assessment.

I've read that "cooking" grains can give that tannic problem. That is to say that running water through your MLT that is too hot can extract tannins. I've poured 4.5 gallons of 180 F sparge water into mine without a problem.

The rate at which you lauter should have no effect on tannin extraction. I leave mine at full bore and I have no issues.

The reason why you want to cool the wort quickly, or at least two of them that I'm aware of, is to decrease the DMS in your beer (tastes like creamed corn), and increase your cold break... which is simply protein.

"The Illustrated Guide to Brewing Beer" by Matthew Schaefer says the following:

"While a bitter flavor derived from hops can be desirable, astringent, mouth-puckering flavors, are not. The are often dry, bitter, and can be powdery. The care caused by tannin extraction due to over steeping, over-sparging, or sparging at too hot a temperature. The can also be caused by over-milled grains or a mash pH that exceeds the range of 5.2-5.6. Don't over-hop in the bittering or finishing stanges, as this will also produce high levels of astringency."

I think your sparging method looks fine. I suggest looking at the mash pH or how finely the grains are milled.

Best of luck

The grains are milled at the local HBS. I asked him about the setting and hes said no ones ever complained about it. He uses it also for his batches.

I have a miller, just not set up yet.

I have some Ph strips, but they are useless to me as the range is too much. Does everyone use a Ph meter?

 

[Yooper]

It definitely sounds like a water chemistry issue. You could get a water report at Ward lab for $26. In the meantime I suggest using reverse osmosis water, the water that comes from those big water machines in the grocery store or in places like Walmart.

If using reverse osmosis water in one batch fixes the problems that will definitely tell you that if it is water related. It certainly sounds like the water.

 

[Darwin18]

I'll echo Yooper - it definitely sounds like you have a water chemistry issue. I don't think your mash temperatures are the main culprit, especially since you said you brewed two sub-par extract brews.

If you're having stuck sparges consider including 0.25 lb or so of rice hulls. They really do make a big difference.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

It definitely sounds like a water chemistry issue. You could get a water report at Ward lab for $26. In the meantime I suggest using reverse osmosis water, the water that comes from those big water machines in the grocery store or in places like Walmart.

If using reverse osmosis water in one batch fixes the problems that will definitely tell you that if it is water related. It certainly sounds like the water.

I had a Ward Labs test done a few months ago. Here are the results.

pH 8.5
TDS 266
Elec Conduct 0.44
Cations/Anions 5.1/5.6

Na 38
K 3
Ca 61
Mg 4
CaCO3 169
NO3-N <0.1
SO4-S 9
Cl 18
CO3 16
HCO3 244
CaCO3 226
P 0.16
Fe <0.1

Anything seem out of the ordinary? We do have pretty hard water here. I run it through an inline filter, but I realize that doesn't do a whole lot for the chemistry.

 

[LLBrewer]

I'll echo Yooper - it definitely sounds like you have a water chemistry issue. I don't think your mash temperatures are the main culprit, especially since you said you brewed two sub-par extract brews.

If you're having stuck sparges consider including 0.25 lb or so of rice hulls. They really do make a big difference.

Another remedy for the stuck sparge is to use a large grain bag inside of your mash tun.

 

[Yooper]

I had a Ward Labs test done a few months ago. Here are the results.

pH 8.5
TDS 266
Elec Conduct 0.44
Cations/Anions 5.1/5.6

Na 38
K 3
Ca 61
Mg 4
CaCO3 169
NO3-N <0.1
SO4-S 9
Cl 18
CO3 16
HCO3 244
CaCO3 226
P 0.16
Fe <0.1

Anything seem out of the ordinary? We do have pretty hard water here. I run it through an inline filter, but I realize that doesn't do a whole lot for the chemistry.

Yep, exceedingly high bicarbonate levels. If you're not doing anything about that, you'd have some issues with tannin extraction, harsh hops flavor, and a too-high mash pH in all but the very blackest stouts.

You definitely need to do something about that high alkalinity, like cutting 75% (or more!) with reverse osmosis water, or boiling to precipitate the bicarbonate, or lime softening.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Yep, exceedingly high bicarbonate levels. If you're not doing anything about that, you'd have some issues with tannin extraction, harsh hops flavor, and a too-high mash pH in all but the very blackest stouts.

You definitely need to do something about that high alkalinity, like cutting 75% (or more!) with reverse osmosis water, or boiling to precipitate the bicarbonate, or lime softening.

Well crap.

(Rant on)

Am I the only person brewing who has terrible water? Ive seen the quote "If its good enough to drink, then its good enough to brew with" over and over. Well, I drink my water, and it seems fine, so obviously that quote is false.

I didn't realize the chemistry made that HUGE of a difference. I was trying to get the process down and make some decent beer. I figured the water chemistry part would come later to turn the decent beer into good or great beer. I felt like I was getting somewhat comfortable with the brewing process and now I have to dabble with the water aspect of it just to make something that's palatable.

I'm well into the 1000s of dollars with this hobby and have spent countless hours researching/brewing/cleaning/building. I'm pretty mad that my problem is the main ingredient in the beer.

(Rant Off)

Whew....OK, I feel better. Had to get that off my chest.

Thanks for your help guys. Hopefully I can get this ironed out.

If I just want to start from basics with water, could I just use all distilled water then add whatever minerals/salts to it, or would it be easier to cut Distilled and My Tap Water 75%/25%?

Edit: I'll be getting a Ph meter this week to help me out.

 

[Darwin18]

Have you tried plugging your water profile in to Brun Water? You can probably adjust the bicarbonate by adding acid, but your best bet is to use RO water to either cut your water or use exclusively to build a water profile. You could also try to reach out to Martin Brungard. His email is in the Brun water file, and he's very active on the AHA forums. He seems like a very responsive and nice guy.

 

[Pie_Man]

Yooper is spot on about your water chemistry. You may want to look into using Bru'N water or EZ water spreadsheets to help adjust your water. They are free to download, just do a google search.

If possible, can you describe the off flavor as best you can? This may help: http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html. While I think tannins are likely a issue, especially with your low efficiency, I wonder if there isn't something else going on, possible chlorophenols from the yeast contacting chlorine/chloromine which can produce medicinal, band-aid, or plastic-like flavors.

For your next beer, I would brew something simple, like an American pale ale using all RO water and see if that does the trick. You can add a few grams of gypsum to increase the calcium which is good for the yeast and the sulfate helps to express the hops. RO water is usually pretty cheap out of those large vending machine often found at grocery stores, here it's like 30 cents a gallon.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

I add 6 uk gallons of water at 80 deg C to 8 uk lb of crushed pale malt, gives me around 68 deg C, if cooler than that I add water at 95 deg C stirring like mad until i get 68, I then leave it for one hour - my manifld is wrapped in a medium nylon bag...getting the wort is no problem at all usually clear after 6 to 8 pints......

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Ive attached an EZ water calculation for Lil Sparkys Nut Brown. Heres the recipe

9.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 76.6 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
1.00 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 8.5 %
0.50 lb Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4.3 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.1 %

I realize Im starting to veer into the need to post this in the Brew Science forum but figured Id start here.

I found Bru'n Water to be extremely confusing. Im sure it works, and I might come back to it later, but EZ Water seems good for now.

I have no idea what to input. I just messed around with the numbers until everything got in range. I just put 100% RO water for Mash and Sparge. It looks like 2 grams of Gypsum, CaCl2, and Epsom Salt.

Gypsum Calc. Chloride Epsom Salt
CaSO4 CaCl2 MgSO4
2 2 2
FALSE TRUE TRUE
0.0 2.1 2.1

Residual Alkalinity was negative and my Chloride/Sulfate ration was below .77. Again, dont know if this matters.

For Oats I did a Crystal Malt with 0L

Any input?

 

[Pie_Man]

No need to use Epsom salt, leave that out. I would leave out the gypsum for this recipe and just use enough CaCl to get calcium over 50ppm. Residual alkalinity is basically meaningless, your mash pH is what's important.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

No need to use Epsom salt, leave that out. I would leave out the gypsum for this recipe and just use enough CaCl to get calcium over 50ppm. Residual alkalinity is basically meaningless, your mash pH is what's important.

I input 3 grams of CaCl and that got Calcium to 58 ppm.

-BTW am I supposed to input 0 for everything since I am using RO water?

-I am at 0 Mg and 0 Sulfate. Does this matter? Ive seen where some people recommend a certain Cl/SO4 ratio.

 

[Pie_Man]

The RO machine near me tested below 10ppm for all the different brewing minerals. They weren't exactly zero, but pretty darn close. Assuming zero ppm for everything is fine.

Mg doesn't do much for beer, can cause dehydration, and can give the beer a harshness if used in excess. At least that is my understanding.

Sulfate helps to express hop bitterness and can give the beer a crispness, but you are brewing a malt focused beer, so this this is not really important.

More importantly than your brewing salts, the goal here is to keep things very simple (i.e. minimal variables) in order to troubleshoot your issue with tannins and very low efficiency.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Cool. Thanks.

Ill brew this again soon with 100% RO water and add 3 grams of CaCl.

It calls for 3 grams at mash and 3.2 at sparge. I assume I just add my mash water (3.75 gallons) to the mash, stir, then throw in the 3 grams, then stir again. Wait 60 minutes. I do a double batch, so add 2 gallons sparge water, stir, add 1.6 grams CaCl, stir, wait 10 minutes. Then do the other 2 gallon batch sparge with 1.6 grams CaCl.

 

[Foosier]

Just one thought to consider, and I am not a water chem expert but got input from the gurus on the beer science forum, if your water tastes good and there are decent mineral levels and the only issue is your "hardness" there are easy ways to address this. Here in Indianapolis our municipal water is pretty good, but is very hard like yours. Since all of the minerals were in line, I was told that all I need to do is add acid to the water to neutralize the "hardness" (alkalinity) before mashing in. I just did a batch last weekend and added 9.3 ml of phosphoric acid to 7.5 gal of water (I do full volume BIAB FWIW) and according to BruN'Water this got my recipe to a predicted PH of 5.4.

Prior to using this adjustment I was getting weird tanins too. Since Tanin extraction is a PH/Temp dependentx reaction, controlling both Temp and PH are very important.

The positive side of just using acid to neutralize the "hardness" is that it is cheap. You can use your water as is and the phosphoric acid is inexpensive. It is also simple. Adding multiple brewing salts and cutting your water with RO can be a bit more challenging to get right.

Just my $0.02 but I'd do the following...
1 - Read the brewing water stickies on the brew science board. Tons of great info there.
2 - Post your water report on the brew science board and ask for advice. The experts there will help. OR just go buy RO water and use that.
3 - tighten up your mash temp control. Make sure you use a calculator to determine your strike temp. Also be sure you have a good calibrated thermometer. Since this is one half of the tannin equation you can't leave this step out. Plus, if you don't hit your mash temp you will kill your enzymes and not convert all the sugars making a possibly unfermentable wort.

Hope this helps.

 

[tagz]

Yeah, that whole "if your water tastes good" thing is ridiculous. Try a batch with RO to see if that does it. If so buy some gypsum, calcium chloride, and lactic acid. Those are the only additions you really need to use your tap water (assuming you took care of the chlorine with the filter). Then play with brun' water a bit. You'll be brewing tasty beers in no time.

 

[mgortel]

Others have hit on it....HIGH ALKALINITY in your water!

So your pH in your mash is certainly way to high = tannin extraction

Go to Walmart and buy distilled water for your next batch and see how it turns out.....bet it will be a world of difference.

In the meantime go to the following link and read up on water chemistry and download the spreadsheet Bruin Water.........you will certainly need to add acid to your mash and sparge water to get your pH down....and you still may want to dilute your water with distilled water.....or just keep using distilled...it is $0.80 a gallon at Walmart.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Try 100% distilled on your next batch and you should be happy...and this will give you reassurance that it is not you...its the water! (Like stated by others you will want to get your Calcium up to 50-60 ppm)

Lets us know how it works out

 

[mgortel]

It calls for 3 grams at mash and 3.2 at sparge. I assume I just add my mash water (3.75 gallons) to the mash, stir, then throw in the 3 grams, then stir again. Wait 60 minutes. I do a double batch, so add 2 gallons sparge water, stir, add 1.6 grams CaCl, stir, wait 10 minutes. Then do the other 2 gallon batch sparge with 1.6 grams CaCl.

Add your "salts" (CaCl) to the water before you add to mash tun...so it mixes well....you can add it to the kettle as it heats and stir.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Add your "salts" (CaCl) to the water before you add to mash tun...so it mixes well....you can add it to the kettle as it heats and stir.

I usually just fill it to 13 gallons and use some heated water for cleaning. IF I do this I assume I would throw in the 3 grams for the strike, 3.2 grams for the sparge, and another 5 grams or so for the additional water. So about 11.2 grams in my HLT?


Also, the LHBS didnt have any CaCl. Can this be found elsewhere?

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Bumping this thread as there is another bad batch.

I did Lil Sparkys Nut Brown again, except changed the base to Marris Otter. I've attached my EZwater spreadsheet and my notes on the brew. I now have a mw102 pH meter. I used RO water with these additions:

Gypsom-2 grams (2 tsp)
CaCl2-5 grams (1.5 tsp)
Epsom Salt-4 grams (1.1 tsp)
Lactic Acid -1.8 mL

I hit a mash pH of 5.3.

I went to BIAB to cut out some variables. One Vessel...how hard can it be right?

My pH was on, my OG was a little higher due to first experience with BIAB, my ferm temp was 64 deg, mash temp was okay.....I'm just at a loss on what to do now. Its a plethora of off flavors this time and its hard to describe.

Ill be taking this along with past brews to the local brewery today.

Ha, anyone in the Birmingham area want to brew on my system?

BTW the wort tasted fine preboil (sweet), but post boil it was tart. Can Bar Keepers Friend leave a taste? I used it to clean my keggle right before brewing, but rinsed thoroughly.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

take your ingredients to a friends house and get him to brew it - then analyse facts

 

[Gunfighter04]

Couple of things from my perspective.

That's a lot of changes from your last brew to this brew, so many that it's hard to say what works and what doesn't.

Simplify;

Brew a smash and use RO water with MAYBE a TSP of CaCl.

Barkeepers friend is a pretty harsh cleaner/polisher. Unless you're trying to get rid of beerstone or some other stain, I'd only use it when necessary. I usually wash an item with soap and water after using bkf, then rinse it out.

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

soap - never! the slightest trace left and no head on your beer - oxycleanse or similar a much better bet

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

I agree its a lot of changes. Just trying BIAB to keep it simple.

I dont have any friends that brew.