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fwh'ing revisited

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tnbrewer371

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so i leave my fwh in for the entire boil? how do i not get the same utilization as I would if i tossed them in when the boil began, while also getting the benefits that fwh'ing gives us? in my mind im extracting the same bu's as tossing them in when the boil begins but getting added benefit. am i wrong in thinking this? lately in my "hoppy" beers i have been subbing my main bittering addition for a fwh addition. is this bad practice? (please dont answer "well if its working for you?") can anyone point to any science that says my fwh addition is extracting the same bu's as for example a 60 min addition would give you? (i always do 75-90+ min boils). I find it hard to believe that im extracting less bu's than in a normal start of boil addition when i leave my fwh in till flameout....
 

ajf

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First wort hopping cannot possibly work, but I must admit it seems to. :)
As for what difference it makes to the bittering contribution, Beersmith defaults to adding an extra 10% IBU for the FWH, but Promash defaults to subtracting 10%
I would hazard a guess that nobody understands the science behind it. I know that I don't.

-a.
 
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tnbrewer371

tnbrewer371

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what do you mean it doesnt work? in my mind it seems to give you the best of both worlds if you allow the fwh to stay in the kettle till flameout. How can the ibu contribution be less than if you added them at the beginning of the boil if you leave them in till flameout?

thanks for contributing the math that beersmith defaults to though....
 

Yooper

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what do you mean it doesnt work? in my mind it seems to give you the best of both worlds if you allow the fwh to stay in the kettle till flameout. How can the ibu contribution be less than if you added them at the beginning of the boil if you leave them in till flameout?

thanks for contributing the math that beersmith defaults to though....
I don't think the IBU contribution is less. It's just that it's "perceived" as less since it's supposed to be a smoother bitterness.

I calculate them as a 60 minute addition, and it seems about right to me.
 
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tnbrewer371

tnbrewer371

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yah i calculate them at whatever im setting my boil time to and I seem to get sufficient bittering, and I lilke hoppy beers. Information in past threads on fwh'ing on here seems to suggest that you should set the time for a fwh'ing addition to 1/3 of the total boil time and from past experiences i dont see how that can be accurate
 

ajf

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what do you mean it doesnt work? in my mind it seems to give you the best of both worlds if you allow the fwh to stay in the kettle till flameout. How can the ibu contribution be less than if you added them at the beginning of the boil if you leave them in till flameout?

thanks for contributing the math that beersmith defaults to though....
Sorry if you misunderstood my post.
I didn't say it doesn't work. I said it cannot possibly work (if you believe the pseudo-scientific explanations regarding the effects of boil time on hop flavor and aroma).
I also said that it seems to work for me. Perhaps I should have replaced the :) with a :confused:

I agree with you regarding the IBU calculations, but these are just guesstimates. I couldn't detect a difference of 10% in IBU

-a.
 

kylevester

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Gordon Strong has a lot about this in his new book.

The perceived bitterness is that of a 20 minute addition, according to the book. So, that's what I put in for Beer Smith. I now do FWH for all my IPA and load up on end additions (20 min or less) and my hop flavor and aroma is huge.

The science behind it is that the bittering and flavor compounds are pulled out by the lower temps but not isomerized, thus the bittering is not as much. These compounds do not end up getting isomerized during the boil either. I've done 90 minute boils with FWH and they've been great.
 

igotworts

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Gordon Strong has a lot about this in his new book.

The perceived bitterness is that of a 20 minute addition, according to the book. So, that's what I put in for Beer Smith. I now do FWH for all my IPA and load up on end additions (20 min or less) and my hop flavor and aroma is huge.

The science behind it is that the bittering and flavor compounds are pulled out by the lower temps but not isomerized, thus the bittering is not as much. These compounds do not end up getting isomerized during the boil either. I've done 90 minute boils with FWH and they've been great.
Just read this recently while planning my Zombie Dust clone, I calced the IBUs as 20 min addition as well. Brewed yeasterday and took a sip of the wort, to me it was def much smother- there wasnt the initial bite like other brews. Is there a style this wouldnt work with?-might be doing this regularly.:mug:
 

kylevester

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Just read this recently while planning my Zombie Dust clone, I calced the IBUs as 20 min addition as well. Brewed yeasterday and took a sip of the wort, to me it was def much smother- there wasnt the initial bite like other brews. Is there a style this wouldnt work with?-might be doing this regularly.:mug:
Styles where hop flavor and aroma aren't supposed to be prevalent FWH probably shouldn't be used. Otherwise, go for it. Hell, unless you're entering a competition, give it a try and see how it is.
 

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I FWH most of my beers. In my experience, beers end up with less perceived bitterness but better flavor. 10% less is a reasonable ballpark, I think. No explanation here, either--just experience (~35 FWH batches in the last 20 months).
 

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Gordon Strong has a lot about this in his new book.

The perceived bitterness is that of a 20 minute addition, according to the book. So, that's what I put in for Beer Smith. I now do FWH for all my IPA and load up on end additions (20 min or less) and my hop flavor and aroma is huge.

The science behind it is that the bittering and flavor compounds are pulled out by the lower temps but not isomerized, thus the bittering is not as much. These compounds do not end up getting isomerized during the boil either. I've done 90 minute boils with FWH and they've been great.
I've read this elsewhere too. Might I ask how high are the IBUs in your IPAs?
 

FATC1TY

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I do the same as kylevester in my IPA's and even my RIS.

I will add say... .75oz or so of Magnum, or Comet, for FWH, and then I won't make another hop addition until 15 minutes, as which point I will bomb it with hops until flame out every 5 minutes. I do my IPA's no less than 55-60 IBU's and have them happily balanced at 75 IBU's normally.
 

TrubHead

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I do the same as kylevester in my IPA's and even my RIS.

I will add say... .75oz or so of Magnum, or Comet, for FWH, and then I won't make another hop addition until 15 minutes, as which point I will bomb it with hops until flame out every 5 minutes. I do my IPA's no less than 55-60 IBU's and have them happily balanced at 75 IBU's normally.
Do you compute (or use software) the IBU of the FWH at 20 minutes? Curious if the FWH imparts enough bitterness when using low alpha hops.
 

theBFG

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I'd also like to know more about this. I've only done it once, on an all citra hopped beer. 1/2 Oz of Citra at FWH then 1 oz at 15, 5, flameout. Gotta say it was much better (IMO) than the 60 min addition due to its smoothness. I don't know how else to describe it other than smooth...there's not that bite of bitterness. Anyway, that's all I got haha :eek:
 

FATC1TY

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Do you compute (or use software) the IBU of the FWH at 20 minutes? Curious if the FWH imparts enough bitterness when using low alpha hops.
My software computes it as a 60 minute addition. I can take .75oz of Magnum and it's 31.3 for FWH, or 28.2 or so, for just a 60 minute boil addition.

I have heard people saying to use aroma hops for it, but I think you can use whatever. I don't find that I get any aroma from it, obviously it's boiling longer than all the other hops. I do get a smoother bittering, but past that, I don't really do it for any other reason other than to take the edge off on certain beer styles or recipes I'm trying. I've always done it with dual use hops, or bittering hops.

I bought some Comet just for this reason.. It's a nice aroma and flavor, and it's high bittering AND cheap.
 

TrubHead

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My software computes it as a 60 minute addition. I can take .75oz of Magnum and it's 31.3 for FWH, or 28.2 or so, for just a 60 minute boil addition.

I have heard people saying to use aroma hops for it, but I think you can use whatever. I don't find that I get any aroma from it, obviously it's boiling longer than all the other hops. I do get a smoother bittering, but past that, I don't really do it for any other reason other than to take the edge off on certain beer styles or recipes I'm trying. I've always done it with dual use hops, or bittering hops.

I bought some Comet just for this reason.. It's a nice aroma and flavor, and it's high bittering AND cheap.
Thanks for your reply. I'll increase the FWH amount using a "flavor" hop and see if the flavor comes through along with bittering.
 

Gameface

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I use beersmith and I recently started doing FWHing for most of my previous 60min additions. Beersmith calculates HIGHER IBUs! As previously mentioned, beersmith bumps the numbers from my FWH addition 10% compared to adding at 60 min. My beers have not dropped in bitterness by much if at all. So for those considering a FWH a 20 min addition I think you're gonna be a little off.

When I first started FWHing I tried several things on several different brews. I subbed FWHing for my 15 min additions, I subbed FWH for my 5 min additions, I subbed FWHing for a 30 min addition. I've settled on FWHing my 60 min bittering hops and have gone with the numbers beersmith provides. Again, my bitterness is certainly in the ballpark of where it was when I was adding my bittering hops at 60min.
 

FATC1TY

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Exactly.

I sub out any 60 min additions, and call FWH enough. I tweak my hop schedule to balance out the IBU's where they need to be for the style and my preferences, and rarely add anymore hops for true bittering outside of the FWH.
 

TrubHead

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I use beersmith and I recently started doing FWHing for most of my previous 60min additions. Beersmith calculates HIGHER IBUs! As previously mentioned, beersmith bumps the numbers from my FWH addition 10% compared to adding at 60 min. My beers have not dropped in bitterness by much if at all. So for those considering a FWH a 20 min addition I think you're gonna be a little off.

When I first started FWHing I tried several things on several different brews. I subbed FWHing for my 15 min additions, I subbed FWH for my 5 min additions, I subbed FWHing for a 30 min addition. I've settled on FWHing my 60 min bittering hops and have gone with the numbers beersmith provides. Again, my bitterness is certainly in the ballpark of where it was when I was adding my bittering hops at 60min.
Are you getting much flavor from "flavor" hops when FWH?
 

Gameface

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Are you getting much flavor from "flavor" hops when FWH?
Well, hard to say. I'm not too sensitive to hop flavor and have a hard time picking it out unless it's hitting me over the head.

I've been really happy with my beers since going to FWH. I think the bitterness is nicer.

But after experimenting a little I'm not adding my flavoring hops as FWHs. I'm only using it in place of my 60min hop additions. In that capacity I think it's either equal to 60min additions or offers a slightly smoother bitterness. My beers haven't been noticeably sweeter since using FWH in place of a 60 min addition, so based on that I'm assuming my IBUs are in the same range they were when I was doing the 60min and no FWHing.

Hope that helps.
 

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is there any reason to fhw something like warrior that is already supposed to be smooth and clean?
 

Brewskii

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FATC1TY said:
My software computes it as a 60 minute addition. I can take .75oz of Magnum and it's 31.3 for FWH, or 28.2 or so, for just a 60 minute boil addition.

I have heard people saying to use aroma hops for it, but I think you can use whatever. I don't find that I get any aroma from it, obviously it's boiling longer than all the other hops. I do get a smoother bittering, but past that, I don't really do it for any other reason other than to take the edge off on certain beer styles or recipes I'm trying. I've always done it with dual use hops, or bittering hops.

I bought some Comet just for this reason.. It's a nice aroma and flavor, and it's high bittering AND cheap.
If its not too much trouble, can you or someone else show a "typical" hop bill for an IPA and then show how you would brew it as an example using FWH?

I just brewed the BYO Pitch Black clone and it was ferociously bitter even after 6 weeks. 5 gallon bill looked like this;

16 AAU Warrior hops (75 mins) (1.0 oz./28 g of 16% alpha acid)
1.4 AAU Cascade hops (2 mins) (0.25 oz./7.1 g of 5.8% alpha acid)
12 AAU Warrior hops (2 mins) (0.75 oz./21 g of 16 % alpha acid)
0.25 oz. (7.1 g) Warrior hops (dry hops)
0.50 oz. (14 g) Cascade hops (dry hops)
 

TrubHead

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Well, hard to say. I'm not too sensitive to hop flavor and have a hard time picking it out unless it's hitting me over the head.

I've been really happy with my beers since going to FWH. I think the bitterness is nicer.

But after experimenting a little I'm not adding my flavoring hops as FWHs. I'm only using it in place of my 60min hop additions. In that capacity I think it's either equal to 60min additions or offers a slightly smoother bitterness. My beers haven't been noticeably sweeter since using FWH in place of a 60 min addition, so based on that I'm assuming my IBUs are in the same range they were when I was doing the 60min and no FWHing.

Hope that helps.
Thanks. I've been using bittering hops FWH but will see how low alpha flavor hops FWH affect the flavor next time brewing.
 

FATC1TY

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If its not too much trouble, can you or someone else show a "typical" hop bill for an IPA and then show how you would brew it as an example using FWH?

I just brewed the BYO Pitch Black clone and it was ferociously bitter even after 6 weeks. 5 gallon bill looked like this;

16 AAU Warrior hops (75 mins) (1.0 oz./28 g of 16% alpha acid)
1.4 AAU Cascade hops (2 mins) (0.25 oz./7.1 g of 5.8% alpha acid)
12 AAU Warrior hops (2 mins) (0.75 oz./21 g of 16 % alpha acid)
0.25 oz. (7.1 g) Warrior hops (dry hops)
0.50 oz. (14 g) Cascade hops (dry hops)

Certainly.. I brew alot of IPA's, and DIPA's.. I'll change it up, hell even on the fly sometimes based on how I'm feeling it's going even. ;)

I'm not at home with the software now, so I can't give precise IBU's, and ratios on the IBU:OG, which I typically shoot for atleast 1.00 I think.

For a nice citrusy IPA, with some clean bitterness that doesn't overtake the taste of the hops, I would do:

.75oz or 1oz of Magnum or a clean bittering hop- FWH

Once it's boiling, I would not add much of anything outside of say, 20 minutes.

So-

1oz Cascade @ 15min
.5 oz Simcoe @ 10min
1oz Amarillo @ 10min
.5 Simcoe @ 5 min
1 oz Citra @ 5 min
.5 Cascade @ Flameout
.5 Citra @ Flameout
.5 Amarillo @ Amarillo

I'd then decide what I had left, or used, for dry hopping. I'd toss the other .5oz of Cascade, Amarillo, Citra in the dry hop.

That would probably get you in the neighborhood of 60-75 IBU's, in a grist of around 12-14 lbs of grain maybe? Like I said, no software.. I brewed up something similar last week that was around 75-77 IBU's in a DIPA that'll ride around 8.5/9% ABV, with very little crystal in it.

The change is the "perceived" bittering I've noticed. It'll still have the IBU numbers, but doesn't really hit you hard. I notice the later additions better, and my aroma stays longer and it just taste more flavorful.

I'm able to bitter the beer where I'm comfortable and happy to balance it out, but I don't have to sacrifice tossing more hops in early and losing some of their value in aroma and flavor.
 
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