Frustrated with Infected Batch

[Munchkin]

Well if been awhile since ive ran into this issue.

Before using starsan, i used iodophor. I had some bottle contamination issues which i assumed was due to the lack of contact time it had with the iodophor. I switched to using star san to sanitize most of my brewing equipment other than my bottles. The bottles are sterilized in the oven at 350F for an hour.

Ok to the issue. A few months ago I made a Scottish 60 Shilling.
Mashed at 157F
OG 1.036
FG 1.016
Oxygenated and pitched using rehydrated us05.
Sat in primary for 11 weeks before it was bottled, all looked good.

5 weeks in the bottle I noticed the bottles had large white rafts/chunks in the neck of the bottle which fall quickly if the bottles disturbed. There are also large rafts on the bottle of the bottle along with a dusting of "good yeast" All bottles are infected. They are also overcarbonated.

Im unsure of where my issue is coming from, I had this exact contamination issue with a belgian strong as well as a russian imperial stout last year. A common attribute all these beers share is a long primary and/or secondary. I know all objects are clean and sanitized. Is it possible after this long of a primary at room temperature ive lost enough yeast viability that a rouge yeast/bacteria is able to utilize the priming sugar and out compete my original pitching yeast?

Up for some tips/help guys thanks!

 

[Munchkin]

These are not my beers but a couple pictures that are similar to what im dealing with.

 

[zmanzorro]

Can you get a pic outside of the bottle?

What does it taste like?

 

[douglasbarbin]

Almost impossible for us to say what it is without knowing how it smells/tastes.

 

[MaxStout]

Did you taste the hydro sample when you bottled? Did it taste OK?

If the bugs didn't get to it during ferm, maybe it's from the bottling bucket, bottle filler, racking gear or some tubing? That was the likely culprit when I had an infected batch a while back. Racking & bottling is the weak link in the sanitation chain, IMO. I'm thinking it's not the bottles, as all of the beers are infected.

 

[ECKraus]

I can't really see the pictures, but from your description, it sounds like an infection. How does it taste?

Remember that just because there might be some type of bacteria (eek) growing, that doesn't mean that the entire batch if completely finished. You can salvage your batch if you're sure it's not a cataclysmic growth/infection. Remember that refrigeration is key before moving forward!

 

[Munchkin]

Here are some pictures of one of the bottles. I couldnt get the camera to focus properly for the bottom shot.

 

[Munchkin]

The sample before bottling tasted fine. It was my first time drinking a scottish ale but as far as off flavours there wasnt anything that jumped out at me. Its thin, a hint of sweetness and bitterness. Quite plain actually. I dont taste any sourness. I do try to replace my siphon hose every once and awhile. I also soak all racking equipment with oxyclean from time to time as well. Ive gotten into the habit of rinsing everything with hot water right after use, then a dip in star san before storing. Also after chilling a bottle overnight, I was surprised it didnt seem as overcarbonated as the warm one I opened up yesterday. Perhaps the co2 levels are different from bottle to bottle... not sure.

 

[AndyRN]

So, not saying anything you probably don't already know. If all bottles are infected and there was no infection in primary it has to be coming after, right??? Well, the issue is that one or two bad bacteria or wild yeast that get into your batch, when you're bottling, will not infect an entire batch, they can't multiply that fast to get into every single bottle.

I am not expert by any means, but I would say it was infected in the primary and the addition of dextrose at bottling made the wild yeast or bacteria take off.

Are you using a carboy or a bucket. If it's a bucket I would look for scratches and if you have a spigot on it, throw it out. If it's a carboy and it's in good shape I would look at other equipment that comes in contact with the wort after flame out and the primary.

My biggest worry is always when I am cooling down the wort, I always feel like that time is the most vulnerable. I can sterilize the crap out of everything but I can't control what's in the air, just minimize the worts exposure to the elements.

Good luck, I feel for you, it's depressing, chin up.

 

[Munchkin]

So, not saying anything you probably don't already know. If all bottles are infected and there was no infection in primary it has to be coming after, right??? Well, the issue is that one or two bad bacteria or wild yeast that get into your batch, when you're bottling, will not infect an entire batch, they can't multiply that fast to get into every single bottle.

I am not expert by any means, but I would say it was infected in the primary and the addition of dextrose at bottling made the wild yeast or bacteria take off.

Are you using a carboy or a bucket. If it's a bucket I would look for scratches and if you have a spigot on it, throw it out. If it's a carboy and it's in good shape I would look at other equipment that comes in contact with the wort after flame out and the primary.

My biggest worry is always when I am cooling down the wort, I always feel like that time is the most vulnerable. I can sterilize the crap out of everything but I can't control what's in the air, just minimize the worts exposure to the elements.

Good luck, I feel for you, it's depressing, chin up.

I agree with what your saying. Im using a glass carboy. Luckily this was a half batch 2.5G. Im also concerned with chilling the wort down. Im using an immersion copper chiller that i throw in 15 mins before the end of the boil. The pot stays uncovered during this time. Another thing to add is I top up with tap water after cooling and adding wort to the carboy. Something that hasn't seem to cause me issues in the past

thanks for the ideas man

 

[douglasbarbin]

Well, the issue is that one or two bad bacteria or wild yeast that get into your batch, when you're bottling, will not infect an entire batch, they can't multiply that fast to get into every single bottle.

Why couldn't they? Most of the saccharomyces cerevisiae have flocced out or gone dormant by that time, and fresh sugar has just been added to the wort. It's a perfect breeding ground for yeast (wild or otherwise) and sugar-loving bacteria. We aren't talking about "one or two" cells of yeast or bacteria here; it is likely millions if not billions, and they can multiply at an astounding rate.

Another thing to add is I top up with tap water after cooling and adding wort to the carboy.

That is a pretty big detail to leave out of your original post. Assuming that you have an infection (I couldn't tell from the pictures you posted), there's a good chance that your infection could have come from that. If not, you may have racked or transferred using infected equipment, or you might have a colony of something hiding in your bottling bucket, tubing, or bottling wand.

 

[douglasbarbin]

I also soak all racking equipment with oxyclean from time to time as well. Ive gotten into the habit of rinsing everything with hot water right after use, then a dip in star san before storing. Also after chilling a bottle overnight, I was surprised it didnt seem as overcarbonated as the warm one I opened up yesterday. Perhaps the co2 levels are different from bottle to bottle... not sure.

Oxyclean isn't going to sanitize anything. Star San is good, but you need to apply it right before you use your racking equipment. Using it before storing the is basically wasting it. Personally, I use a spray bottle full of Star San and spray everything down thoroughly before I transfer. Lots of folks do it that way and it's very convenient. I only clean equipment before storing it but I never sanitize it until I am ready to use it.

Regarding the carbonation, there are a few things to consider. Perhaps you did not mix your priming sugar evenly into the wort before bottling, and some bottles are more carbonated than others. Another possibility is that they are all equally carbonated and the temperature difference is why one seemed more carbonated than another. CO2 comes out of solution more easily at warmer temperatures, so CO2 will escape from a warm beer faster than it will from a cold one.

 

[Yooper]

I agree with what your saying. Im using a glass carboy. Luckily this was a half batch 2.5G. Im also concerned with chilling the wort down. Im using an immersion copper chiller that i throw in 15 mins before the end of the boil. The pot stays uncovered during this time. Another thing to add is I top up with tap water after cooling and adding wort to the carboy. Something that hasn't seem to cause me issues in the past

thanks for the ideas man

You left it in the carboy for 11 weeks with 2.5 gallons of headspace?

 

[Munchkin]

Why couldn't they? Most of the saccharomyces cerevisiae have flocced out or gone dormant by that time, and fresh sugar has just been added to the wort. It's a perfect breeding ground for yeast (wild or otherwise) and sugar-loving bacteria. We aren't talking about "one or two" cells of yeast or bacteria here; it is likely millions if not billions, and they can multiply at an astounding rate.




That is a pretty big detail to leave out of your original post. Assuming that you have an infection (I couldn't tell from the pictures you posted), there's a good chance that your infection could have come from that. If not, you may have racked or transferred using infected equipment, or you might have a colony of something hiding in your bottling bucket, tubing, or bottling wand.

It quite possibly could have come from the tap water. Ive used it for multiple batches with no issues but perhaps its whats in the water at that moment im topping up.

I should also clarify I do sanitize all equipment before and after I use it with star san. I have a bucket of star san as well as the sprayer you mentioned.

You were able to see the pics though douglasbarbin correct?

 

[Munchkin]

You left it in the carboy for 11 weeks with 2.5 gallons of headspace?

Your correct. It was airlocked the entire time as well.

 

[douglasbarbin]

You were able to see the pics though douglasbarbin correct?

Yes, I could make out the pics, but there weren't any obvious (to me) signs of infection like a pellicle already formed.

 

[stpug]

It looks like undissolved yeast prills. Did you happen to add dry yeast to the beer at bottling time?

 

[Munchkin]

It looks like undissolved yeast prills. Did you happen to add dry yeast to the beer at bottling time?

No. I considered it due to the fact it sat so long in primary but decided to just go for it and see what happens.

 

[1977Brewer]

I have several new desktops to choose from.

Your beer is a dumper, provided it tastes bad.

 

[Yooper]

You left it in the carboy for 11 weeks with 2.5 gallons of headspace?

Your correct. It was airlocked the entire time as well.

Well, I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but leaving a beer in a vessel with nearly 3 gallons of headspace for 10 weeks (or more) after fermentation finished isn't ideal. A low OG batch like that was probably done fermenting in just a couple of days, and once fermentation ends, it becomes more vulnerable to oxygen-loving bacteria and yeast and the risk of contamination rises.

This is probably a one-off, and I'd simply bleach bomb the carboy, and start over with a new batch.

 

[Munchkin]

I have several new desktops to choose from.

Your beer is a dumper, provided it tastes bad.

lol

It doesnt taste bad but i might just keep it in house The rest of the bottles have been moved to the fridge.

 

[Munchkin]

Well, I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but leaving a beer in a vessel with nearly 3 gallons of headspace for 10 weeks (or more) after fermentation finished isn't ideal. A low OG batch like that was probably done fermenting in just a couple of days, and once fermentation ends, it becomes more vulnerable to oxygen-loving bacteria and yeast and the risk of contamination rises.

This is probably a one-off, and I'd simply bleach bomb the carboy, and start over with a new batch.

Thanks Yooper. I agree it isnt ideal (I wish i had room for more 3 gal carboys :/) You really think the risk of bacteria/wild yeast is significantly increased even if fermentation has purged the vessel? Im just trying to make sense of this in my head. If im airlocked, not dryhopping or taking samples, shouldnt the vessel be just as safe as a purged keg? Does this look more like a yeast or a bacteria? I agree with you advice and ill do a good cleaning of all equipment that came into contact. I wish it was easier to pinpoint the time when the mistake/issue came to light.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper. I agree it isnt ideal (I wish i had room for more 3 gal carboys :/) You really think the risk of bacteria/wild yeast is significantly increased even if fermentation has purged the vessel? Im just trying to make sense of this in my head. If im airlocked, not dryhopping or taking samples, shouldnt the vessel be just as safe as a purged keg? Does this look more like a yeast or a bacteria? I agree with you advice and ill do a good cleaning of all equipment that came into contact. I wish it was easier to pinpoint the time when the mistake/issue came to light.

Yes. Not during active fermentation, but once fermentation ends the gas in the carboy will seek equilibrium and it will become an issue.

I know many people say that there is a "co2 blanket" over the beer, but that is simply not true. It there was such a thing, we'd all die in our beds when we exhale. It is true that when fermentation is active that the is so much c02 being produced that this is not an issue at all, but once that slows down it changes. A low OG beer like that might have been done with active fermentation in 1-3 days, and the rest of the time with such a huge headspace puts it at risk.

Some will mention that the carboy is airlocked, and of course that is a good thing to keep out fruit flies and things. But even an airlocked carboy isn't airtight, as even the water in the airlock allows air exchange, and so does the rubber of the bung. Opening the carboy for occasional readings also makes it vulnerable. For short time, headspace isn't a problem but for long term it's risky.

When people post photos of their (unintended) infections, it is almost never in a carboy that is topped up but usually in a bucket after more than three weeks, or in a carboy that has lots of headspace long term. Even great sanitation won't protect the beer in those cases.

I come from a winemaker's background, and have left wine in an airlocked and topped up carboy for very long periods of time, but that's because there is only an inch of headspace. Even then, there is some micro-oxidation that takes place, and many winemakers (like myself) will use sulfites as an antioxidant and preservative to protect the wine.

A purged keg is a whole different story, as there is 0 air exchange. The beer would still age, but oxygen would be kept away assuming the gas was on the keg the whole time.

A 1.036 beer would not age well, but it wouldn't spoil in a keg under gas. It would just be long past its peak in 10 weeks.

 

[Munchkin]

Yes. Not during active fermentation, but once fermentation ends the gas in the carboy will seek equilibrium and it will become an issue.

I know many people say that there is a "co2 blanket" over the beer, but that is simply not true. It there was such a thing, we'd all die in our beds when we exhale. It is true that when fermentation is active that the is so much c02 being produced that this is not an issue at all, but once that slows down it changes. A low OG beer like that might have been done with active fermentation in 1-3 days, and the rest of the time with such a huge headspace puts it at risk.

Some will mention that the carboy is airlocked, and of course that is a good thing to keep out fruit flies and things. But even an airlocked carboy isn't airtight, as even the water in the airlock allows air exchange, and so does the rubber of the bung. Opening the carboy for occasional readings also makes it vulnerable. For short time, headspace isn't a problem but for long term it's risky.

When people post photos of their (unintended) infections, it is almost never in a carboy that is topped up but usually in a bucket after more than three weeks, or in a carboy that has lots of headspace long term. Even great sanitation won't protect the beer in those cases.

I come from a winemaker's background, and have left wine in an airlocked and topped up carboy for very long periods of time, but that's because there is only an inch of headspace. Even then, there is some micro-oxidation that takes place, and many winemakers (like myself) will use sulfites as an antioxidant and preservative to protect the wine.

A purged keg is a whole different story, as there is 0 air exchange. The beer would still age, but oxygen would be kept away assuming the gas was on the keg the whole time.

A 1.036 beer would not age well, but it wouldn't spoil in a keg under gas. It would just be long past its peak in 10 weeks.

I appreciate the detailed response Yooper. This defiantly was a batch that got away from me.

 

[dwhite60]

I will add to yoopers post that thermal expansion/contraction
will cause air to get sucked back through your air-lock especially
with 2.5+ gallons of airspace. Less airspace reduces the
possibility of this.

If you had gotten something growing in you air-lock just one
back flow could contaminate your beer.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[ten80]

Not certain if you are racking with a cane or autosiphon, but both can be difficult to clean and should be replaced frequently if there is ANY doubt that they are not completely clean. I had several infected batches of bottles as a result of mold growing in a tiny crevice in my racking cane.

I prefer to use a racking cane and start it with a turkey baster full of star-san when possible, but this doesn't always work well if there is fruit or hop pellets in the carboy.

I also cover any open or cracked lid or bung with saran-wrap or tin-foil sprayed with star san to reduce the odds of foreign micro-organisms floating in to my fermenter or bottling buckets.