Frustrated with closed transfers from carboy

[marjen]

So I am not sure if I am the only one having issues, but this is getting frustrating. I do (or try to do) closed pressurized transfers from my carboys to by kegs. But I continually have issues with no beer passing through the ball lock connected to the keg. Sometimes it all flows fine no issues. But often I have to play around with it, try switching ball locks, try and check the dip tube to make sure its in ok, end up killing the nice purged tank I have due to opening it many times. And like yesterday had to give up all together and do an open transfer, which means my NE IPA will probably be an oxyginated mess in a week or two.

Any one have any tips for this extremely frustrating process?

 

[friarsmith]

If your NEIPA is a murk-bomb as many are, it may be predisposed to clogging. I'm assuming you're applying low CO2 pressure to your carboy, pushing out through a racking cane into a length of tubing to the black ball lock disconnect on the keg.

What I do for closed transfers is to remove the liquid post from the keg and clamp my 1/2" siphon tube onto the top end of the dip tube. You'll have to lift the dip tube up an inch or so. After transfer, just unclamp the tube and replace the post. This works for both low-pressure transfers and with an autosiphon

For a few years I had a "dedicated" old dip tube that I used for transfers. Worked well, and there was no issue with the little lip at the top of the dip tube. Then you just put in the kegs dip tube and post when you're done.

FWIW, I wouldn't worry too much about oxidation if you purged the keg well after filling. You're probably going to drink that beer really fresh anyway.

 

[marjen]

So is what you are doing a closed transfer? I am usually good about not letting crap from the bottom of the carboy get in the line, but guessing maybe some stuff does hit the ball lock. I have soaked them and spayed them with water. Just wish there was a better way to do this.

 

[friarsmith]

I suppose you could remove the spring/poppet/o-ring from inside the ball lock disconnect and also the poppet from the keg post before transferring. That would remove most of the physical obstructions. Never tried it, but I can't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[passedpawn]

If you're making hoppy beers, the cause is usually hop material getting stuck in the poppet in the disconnect fitting. You can remove that little poppet by unscrewing the back of the disconnect.

The downside here is that if you remove the disconnect during flow, it'll keep flowing. The solution to that is to use a tubing valve like this to stop the flow before disconnecting. You can probably pick one up at home depot for a buck.

[edit] dammit friar, you beat me to it

 

[marjen]

from inside the ball lock disconnect

I might try this as an experiment. But the obstacle seems to be the ball lock on the hose. If i remove that, beer flows. Also beer comes out of the keg once filled, so not sure its the connector on the keg. I feel like for some reason the ball lock on the hose is some how preventing the flow of beer into the keg. Maybe i will try and give them all a good soak. But this past weekend I tried 3 different connecters and none of them would work.

I guess the good news is if oxidation really takes a while to present itself I have not had one of these kegs last longer than 3 weeks, so maybe it won't be an issue.

 

[passedpawn]

I might try this as an experiment. But the obstacle seems to be the ball lock on the hose. If i remove that, beer flows. Also beer comes out of the keg once filled, so not sure its the connector on the keg. I feel like for some reason the ball lock on the hose is some how preventing the flow of beer into the keg. Maybe i will try and give them all a good soak. But this past weekend I tried 3 different connecters and none of them would work.

I guess the good news is if oxidation really takes a while to present itself I have not had one of these kegs last longer than 3 weeks, so maybe it won't be an issue.

The disconnect is the plastic connection on the hose, not on the keg. (the part on the keg is the POST).

Open the disconnect by inserting a screwdriver into the slot on the back of it and turning CCW. You'll find a poppet in there. Remove it.

 

[dyqik]

So is what you are doing a closed transfer?

Not quite, I guess. But prepping a ball-lock disconnect without a poppet, removing the ball-lock post and removing the poppet, and then replacing the post poppet after transfer is only going to expose about 5mm^2 of beer in the dip tube to oxygen for a minute or so. If you then immediately connect the keg to CO2 and the beer line and purge the beer line by opening the tap, that exposed beer will be flushed within a couple of minutes.

Oxygen doesn't diffuse that fast in beer - the diffusion coefficient also gets significantly lower at lower temperatures.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Any one have any tips for this extremely frustrating process?

Cold-crash everything hard to the bottom, then rig up your carboy dip tube like the one in the foreground:


I've been doing CO2-pushes to kegs (and rarely, between carboys) with this for years and have never had it fail.
The mesh prevents crap from making the trip, and the SS washer keeps the nylon mesh open and won't allow it to be sucked up the dip tube...

Cheers!

 

[marjen]

Hey guys thanks for the advise to take apart the ball locks on the disconnects from the hose. I did not know they came apart. Sure enough when I disabled them there was a bunch of hop gunk in all 3 of them. So i cleaned them out real good and will give it a go this weekend! Thanks.

 

[bradleypariah]

View attachment 401512

DUDE. This is amazing. I just went and bought carboy caps because of this image. I am never going to oxidize during transfer again. You rock! :rockin:

 

[day_trippr]

Just please be careful and use common sense.

- Wear safety glasses - I do transfers in my shop so they're always at hand.
- The receiving vessel should be well below the carboy - don't try pushing up hill (I've seen folks inexplicably doing this).
- You only need 1 or maybe 2 psi or so to get the flow going; after that you can dial back a bit and let gravity and the siphon effect do their thing.
This also conserves a bit of CO2 vs using a higher pressure than the minimum.

Beyond that, some recommendations:

- When setting up the carboy cap on the carboy, don't slide the dip tube into the beer at first. Get the band clamp on, hook up the gas, hook up the receiving vessel and make certain it's vented, turn on the gas and flush the tubing all the way to the keg. Then lower the dip tube. If you're pushing to a purged keg, before hooking the keg up use your thumb to vent the beer QD first.

- Rather than using the PRV to vent the receiving keg, I snap on a gas QD with some tubing running into a bucket of water. If for some reason I were to over fill there's a lot less mess to clean up. Note that all of my kegs have their gas dip tube cut down to under 1/2" length. That probably matters.

- I recommend using a scale under the keg as you can do a precise fill to the very top of the un-tapered keg section (which on my Super Champion kegs is 4.89 gallons, or 41.25 pounds net weight for 1.010 FG brews).

Cheers!

 

[marjen]

So just a quick update. After cleaning out the ball lock connector I had a perfectly smooth transfer yesterday! Thanks for the advise. Worked like a charm.

 

[passedpawn]

So just a quick update. After cleaning out the ball lock connector I had a perfectly smooth transfer yesterday! Thanks for the advise. Worked like a charm.

Glad to hear. BTW, it's a ball lock disconnect.

 

[NBBC13]

Just got a new fermenter that will allow closed transfers to the keg.
Just wondering though whether the whole system needs to be closed. If my empty keg is filled with CO2 before I open the lid and I pressure transfer from fermenter into the keg, there should still be a blanket of CO2 as long as I don't take too long, correct? I know CO2 isn't a heavy gas like N2, but should still work.
thoughts?

 

[dyqik]

Not really, no. CO2 mixes with air fairly rapidly. N2 is lighter than CO2, btw.

But you just need to connect the transfer tube to a beer out ball lock fitting, put it on the keg's beer out post, and pull the PRV to allow it to transfer. No need to open the lid.

 

[wysiwyg]

I do closed closed transfers from carboy to keg as well, but I never use CO2 to push, I put one of these on the other hole of the bung and blow through it to start the siphon - https://www.morebeer.com/products/sanitary-filter.html?gclid=CNPJl4CYr9QCFQgpaQodtcEJ5w

Takes one hefty blow to get it going, and as long as I have a clean disconnect and the keg PRV open, I have no issues. Saves CO2 and I never have to worry about over pressurizing my glass carboys.

 

[govner1]

Not really, no. CO2 mixes with air fairly rapidly. N2 is lighter than CO2, btw.

But you just need to connect the transfer tube to a beer out ball lock fitting, put it on the keg's beer out post, and pull the PRV to allow it to transfer. No need to open the lid.

^^^^This

 

[h22lude]

I had this happen to me with a dry hopped brown ale.

I haven't bought this but the reviews are great. http://arborfab.com/Auto-Siphon-Filter_p_57.html

 

[andrewmaixner]

I had this happen to me with a dry hopped brown ale.
I haven't bought this but the reviews are great. http://arborfab.com/Auto-Siphon-Filter_p_57.html

I have one of those also, but it isn't a perfect solution.
issues:
1) just barely does not fit into some glass carboys, too wide

2) if using with a 1/2" (large) autosiphon, it is a tight fit, so the the filtration area is just barely the area of the autosiphon input. This can get fully clogged with stuff (hops, oak dust, wine must goo -- ask me how i know!) resulting in a massive air suck-in from above (between the mesh and the siphon, or at the siphon's internal pump seal), and boom, you have just oxidized your beverage.

3) can't be used for closed transfers, too tall



I like the idea of the washer and mesh over the end of the racking cane.

 

[marjen]

Just saw this thread pop up. I am going to say a year later that even with a unitank closed transfers to ball locks suck! I still have issues as all I make are hoppy beers. Its a lot better in that i do dump as much drub as possible but sometimes things still get through. Why cant anyone make ball locks with more flow to them?

 

[Staticsouls]

Weldless bulkhead and ball valve and a stainless bazooka tube inside the fermenter. It can be broken down for cleaning, and stainless is easy to sanitize.

 

[SanPancho]

If you want the least restriction on transfer then use 1/2 id hose and unscrew the keg post. Hose will fit right over the threads. Then just pop the post back on as soon as you finish and good to go. Silicone is easier since its more flexible but any hose should work.

 

[ILMSTMF]

Cold-crash everything hard to the bottom, then rig up your carboy dip tube like the one in the foreground:
View attachment 401512

I've been doing CO2-pushes to kegs (and rarely, between carboys) with this for years and have never had it fail.
The mesh prevents crap from making the trip, and the SS washer keeps the nylon mesh open and won't allow it to be sucked up the dip tube...

Cheers!

This is great! Can I use it for closed transferring from a bucket though?

I have a new SS racking cane to replace my plastic auto siphon with. The SS cane can fit through the airlock grommet to get to the beer. But, the washer in this configuration would not allow the cane to pass through. Probably the clamp that is holding the mesh on would get in the way too...

Any advice? Thank you.

 

[day_trippr]

I've never used buckets as fermenters so have no experience. Clearly it's going to be a matter of how tight the lid seals and then how tight your racking cane and CO2 input connection seal.
Beyond that, if you're keen to avoid removing the lid to slide the cane through then apply the mesh and washer (totally understandable) you'll just have to manipulate the cane to avoid sucking up debris as best as you can.

I prop up my carboys with a wood block to tilt them which makes it easier to get the last liquid out of the carboy, you might try something similar. Measure the cane against an empty bucket and wrap a bit of tape around where the height would be relative to the lid grommet with the tip just above the trub. I have a similar reference on my cane as some brews (porter, stout) are too dark to see where the cane is...


Cheers!

 

[ILMSTMF]

Great tips, thank you @day_trippr

I think I'm hosed on making this work as fully closed and using the washer. Would it be worth it to use mesh only? I could tie it around the cane with dental floss. Would probably still be thin enough to pass through grommet.

I have a carboy half filled with Star San. I can use CO2 with a two port cap to prime the cane / start siphon. I use a QD on the end with a jumper post to get liquid moving through. Then I detach the jumper once there is liquid in. Cane goes into beer, attach jumper, get beer in line (draining to a cup or sink drain), detach jumper, put QD on keg post and in it goes.
Related to this thread - I've tried this three times and was only ever successful once. Until it clogged at the last gallon. Solution was to remove poppets from post and QD. I have no problem removing those poppets for this process and wouldn't mind doing it every time. Then reinstall poppets once finished transferring. BUT can anyone say if and WHY it's better practice to leave poppets intact during transfers?

Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

If you can get the mesh through the grommet intact I'd say go for it. But Don't get too aggressive wrt grabbing that last ounce of beer as without the washer a clogged mesh might close up on you.

Leaving the poppets in place is simply easier I expect most folks only pull them when they encounter a problem...

Cheers!

 

[ILMSTMF]

When that lid is next available (not sealed on a fermenter like it is af the moment), I'm going to test running the cane through the grommet with mesh, tied with floss. Some filtering better then none right? The whole point of replacing the plastic auto siphon was so I can do fully closed transfers with only the racking cane. Let's see if I can make that a reality.

As I said, I don't mind removing those poppets. Sure, inconvenient. I'll try next transfer with all poppets in place. See how it goes. Thanks!