Fruit Bazooka NEIPA NB Extract Kit

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Andrew Hodgson

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I just saw that Northern Brewer added an extract kit for a NE IPA here.

I am interested in giving this kit a try, 53$ is a lot but I'd like to use it as a baseline to understand how limited I am at making the NE IPA style. Can I reproduce a complex style to satisfaction with a pre-made kit? I am skeptical.

A couple things that stood out to me:
The yeast options are Omega Tropical IPA, WLP644, or Imperial Yeast A20 citrus.

My first thought upon looking around at what others use for this style is I would actually use GY054 Vermont IPA yeast or WLP095 Burlington Ale yeast as these seem to be more widely accepted as giving the characteristics of the style.

Also on the NB site it claims (as they always do) that water manipulation is not necessary for this kit if your water "tastes good". Do we think that this is true or is it safe to say that when using a premium kit it is best to protect the investment by using spring water and amending it even if your tap water "tastes good"?

Lastly for a style that is best drank fresh as possible as a bottle-baby am I again setting myself up for failure? For instance if fermentation takes 10 days total, then the beer is bottle conditioned for a week or two is that too much time since brewing for this style?

Due to the delicate flavors of the style is 24 days too long and do I risk losing flavor that way? Are they trying to hook me into an expensive kit for a popular style where in order to reproduce the style there are more complexities than they are instructing?

Bottom line is I like this style and I see this kit as a way for someone who is a new brewer to get into it. And honestly at 53$ considering the price of a good NE IPA (14$ for 4-pack of 16 ozers) it isn't even ridiculous to me. I just am wondering if this is a setup for a let-down.

Any insight is appreciated as always.
 

IslandLizard

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NB, what can I say, where should I begin...

$53 is a lot. I heard they put kits on sale all the time, but some never make the list. This may well be one of those.
If you feel comfortable compounding something similar from bulk ingredients, see if you can piece one together.
They included 8 oz of hops which is sort of the bare minimum for this style.

NB recipe instructions make little sense, as always.
Just skimming over it, 3 4 things already glare at me:
  • Steeping flaked Oats
  • Boil extract for 60' without a bittering hop
  • Add "whirlpool hops" at 0' (wort is 210F)
  • Use dry yeast (in Summer)
They (wisely) do not recommend shipping liquid yeast in Summer (temps). But there is no dry equivalent to any of those yeasts.
Another obvious player, WY1318 is missing. Can you source it at a local shop? That would be best.

Have you read (at least some of) the large NEIPA thread by Braufessor? There's enough information there to learn about brewing these beers, and fill a few recipes.
 
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TwistedGray

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For my NEIPA, I used a London ESB English-Style Ale Yeast (dry yeast). It came out perfect.

Regarding bottling; you're fine. I have some that have been on bottles now for just over 4 weeks, and the hop aroma, tropical notes, etc are all still there. Just keep them in a dark, cool place.
 
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Andrew Hodgson

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NB, what can I say, where should I begin...

$53 is a lot. I heard they put kits on sale all the time, but some never make the list. This may well be one of those.
If you feel comfortable compounding something similar from bulk ingredients, see if you can piece one together.
They included 8 oz of hops which is sort of the bare minimum for this style.

NB recipe instructions make little sense, as always.
Just skimming over it, 3 4 things already glare at me:
  • Steeping flaked Oats
  • Boil extract for 60' without a bittering hop
  • Add "whirlpool hops" at 0' (wort is 210F)
  • Use dry yeast (in Summer)
They (wisely) do not recommend shipping liquid yeast in Summer (temps). But there is no dry equivalent to any of those yeasts.
Another obvious player, WY1318 is missing. Can you source it at a local shop? That would be best.

Have you read (at least some of) the large NEIPA thread by Braufessor? There's enough information there to learn about brewing these beers, and fill a few recipes.
I did think the lack of bittering hop addition strange and I agree, with the boil instructions they have I would honestly just boil for 15-20 minutes and then cool a bit and hopstand and add the flameout hops they list.

I have read some of the NE IPA thread and (kind of) understand the principles used. I am just trying to establish the balance between his finely honed AG process and what the potential of my own woefully amateur homebrewing skills would potentially give me.

Maybe the real answer is to like you said just buy the ingredients separately and blend in the knowledge of the more advanced recipes with the practicality of my setup limitations. Just was curious as this looks like setting up the buyer to be let down. I'm not saying I demand the same quality as the hugely popular commercial examples but just looking for opinions on how it can be executed at a less than elite level.

For my NEIPA, I used a London ESB English-Style Ale Yeast (dry yeast). It came out perfect.

Regarding bottling; you're fine. I have some that have been on bottles now for just over 4 weeks, and the hop aroma, tropical notes, etc are all still there. Just keep them in a dark, cool place.
This interests me as I may be able to get one of the liquid yeast options (WLP095) from my LHBS, but I know for a fact they have this yeast. What were your fermentation temps?
 
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TwistedGray

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I ran about 4-5 days before dry hopping
This interests me as I may be able to get one of the liquid yeast options (WLP095) from my LHBS, but I know for a fact they have this yeast. What were your fermentation temps?
I fermented at 75 degrees for the first 5 days and then 78 degrees until it was done fermenting. My cautionary note is that the yeast I selected is extremely vigorous in nature so leave MORE than enough head space.
 
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Andrew Hodgson

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I actually just located this in another thread and think I may use this as a jump-off point, it was reply to a recipe someone posted in a similar situation to me, wanting to do a malt extract recipe with steeping grains:

You'd get about 9-10 points from 2 pounds of two-row in a give gallon batch. I'd use three pounds of wheat DME instead of four, and that would be about equal to the OG you have.

How I'd do it- I'd put the grains in 1.75 gallons and hold at 45 minutes to 60 minutes at 150-154.

Then, when you lift up the bag of grains, pour about 2 gallons over that grainbag, to get to your boil volume. Add your FWH then. Bring to a boil, and add the three pound bag of the extract when it's off the heat, and proceed with your recipe.

You'll boil off about a gallon, I"d guess but it really depends on your stove and your set up.

Then, when you are done with the 60 minute boil, turn off the heat. Add the rest of the extract and stir well. And add the corn sugar at that time also. That should get you near your whirlpool temperature, so you can proceed with the whirlpool hops and then chill.

Then top off to the 5 gallons at that point.
 
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Andrew Hodgson

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I ran about 4-5 days before dry hopping


I fermented at 75 degrees for the first 5 days and then 78 degrees until it was done fermenting. My cautionary note is that the yeast I selected is extremely vigorous in nature so leave MORE than enough head space.
So about 4-5 days of high krausen, first dry hop on that day 4-5 fermentation mark and then the next one 4-5 days before bottling correct?
 
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Andrew Hodgson

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I like that recipe, thanks for posting it!

So now I am thinking something like this combined with Yooper's advise above.

Fermentables:
4 lb Dry Malt Extract - Pilsen
3 lb Dry Malt Extract - Wheat - (late addition)
0.5 lb Corn Sugar - Dextrose - (late addition)
2 lb 2-row
9.5 lb Total

Steeping Grains around 155F for 30-45min
Amount Fermentable PPG °L Bill %
0.5 lb Flaked Wheat 34 2 5%
0.5 lb Torrified Wheat 36 2 5%
0.5 lb Flaked Oats 33 2.2 5%

HOPS SCHEDULE
0.33 oz (9.4 g) Mosaic at 60 minutes
2 oz (56.7 g) Amarillo at flameout, steep for 20 minutes
2 oz (56.7 g) Simcoe at flameout, steep for 20 minutes
1 oz Citra (28.3 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days
2 oz Mosaic (56.7 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days
1 oz Amarillo (28.3 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days
1 oz Galaxy (28.3 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days

Add 1.75 gal water to kettle
Add 2lb 2-row (45-60 min @ 150-154F)
Remove grain and pour 2 gallons through grain bag
Add/steep steeping grains (30 min @ 155F)

Boil (60 min)
Add 4lb Pilsen DME + .33 Mosaic addition (60 min)
1/2 Whirlfloc tab (15min)
3lb Wheat DME + Dextrose at flameout
2 oz (56.7 g) Amarillo at flameout, steep for 20 minutes
2 oz (56.7 g) Simcoe at flameout, steep for 20 minutes
1 oz Citra (28.3 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days
2 oz Mosaic (56.7 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days
1 oz Amarillo (28.3 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days
1 oz Galaxy (28.3 g) dry hop in primary for 7 days

pitch 1 pack of rehydrated ESB yeast

Something like this seems to be the right direction and pretty straight forward, ignoring water mineral considerations.

Twisted did you go over the top of their hop additions or follow pretty closely?
 
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Andrew Hodgson

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I appreciate the input, I think I'll try something along those lines, won't be able to have another brew day until the weekend after the 4th of July but I am going to try and iron this all out to brew my first NE IPA so it is ready for my birthday celebration.

Cheers.
 

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Add 1.75 gal water to kettle
Add 2lb 2-row (45-60 min @ 150-154F)
Remove grain and pour 2 gallons through grain bag
Add/steep steeping grains (30 min @ 155F)
You need to add all your flaked goods (1.5# of it) to that 2-row! ^
That mini mash is essential to convert those flaked goods to sugars and dextrins. It's not a steep!

Torrefied vs. flaked wheat
I'm not sure what torrefied wheat adds compared to flaked, at that percentage. Torrefied wheat is relatively expensive and may be hard to get. You may as well use a pound of flaked wheat instead of 1/2 flaked and 1/2 torrefied, IMO. PLus the Oats. The oats you buy in the grocery store are fine. "Instant" is even better. Not flavored, though.

Mind me saying you've got a lot of wheat in there (~40%)! Is that intentional?

Boil
Do you do a full volume boil? Or top up the fermentor with water after the boil?

Minerals
Add 1.5 tsp Calcium Chloride and 1/2 tsp Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) at the end of your boil.

Hops
I'd rather see you do a 30' whirlpool/hop stand after chilling your wort down to 150-160F. Don't add at 0' (210F), you lose way to much flavor and aroma while adding more bitterness.
In that case you'll need a little more bittering hop.
I'd save the Mosaic for later additions, bitter with Magnum or Warrior.
 
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You need to add all your flaked goods (1.5# of it) to that 2-row! ^
That mini mash is essential to convert those flaked goods to sugars and dextrins. It's not a steep!

Torrefied vs. flaked wheat
I'm not sure what torrefied wheat adds compared to flaked, at that percentage. Torrefied wheat is relatively expensive and may be hard to get. You may as well use a pound of flaked wheat instead of 1/2 flaked and 1/2 torrefied, IMO. PLus the Oats. The oats you buy in the grocery store are fine. "Instant" is even better. Not flavored, though.

Mind me saying you've got a lot of wheat in there (~40%)! Is that intentional?

Boil
Do you do a full volume boil? Or top up the fermentor with water after the boil?

Minerals
Add 1.5 tsp Calcium Chloride and 1/2 tsp Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) at the end of your boil.

Hops
I'd rather see you do a 30' whirlpool/hop stand after chilling your wort down to 150-160F. Don't add at 0' (210F), you lose way to much flavor and aroma while adding more bitterness.
In that case you'll need a little more bittering hop.
I'd save the Mosaic for later additions, bitter with Magnum or Warrior.
Removing the torrefied is fine by me, the recipe was just the beginning of one I saw along with the hop additions for the recipe Twisted linked to, which I liked.

I have never done a mini-mash like this before so that is why I was unsure about those grain directions.

So would the process be:
2lb 2-row and 1lb flaked wheat and .5lb oats all go into a bag and get "mini-mashed" for 45-60 min at 150-154F in 1.75 gallons of water, then remove the bag pour 2 gallons of water through the bag into the kettle (creating about 3.5 gallons for boil volume). Then 60 minute boil with about .5oz Magnum or Warrior @ 60 minutes and the only other hop addition after flameout adds (malt extract, water additives etc.) once the temp is around 150-160, let stand for 30 minutes. Then cool, top off to 5 gallons (5.5 due to hop volume loss?) pitch and follow dry-hopping schedule. Am I missing anything or does that look like the way to go here?
 

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Removing the torrefied is fine by me, the recipe was just the beginning of one I saw along with the hop additions for the recipe Twisted linked to, which I liked.

I have never done a mini-mash like this before so that is why I was unsure about those grain directions.

So would the process be:
2lb 2-row and 1lb flaked wheat and .5lb oats all go into a bag and get "mini-mashed" for 45-60 min at 150-154F in 1.75 gallons of water, then remove the bag pour 2 gallons of water through the bag into the kettle (creating about 3.5 gallons for boil volume). Then 60 minute boil with about .5oz Magnum or Warrior @ 60 minutes and the only other hop addition after flameout adds (malt extract, water additives etc.) once the temp is around 150-160, let stand for 30 minutes. Then cool, top off to 5 gallons (5.5 due to hop volume loss?) pitch and follow dry-hopping schedule. Am I missing anything or does that look like the way to go here?
That's about it.
You'll get very little or no bittering from the hopstand hops at those low 150-160F temps. Which is good, more flavor left!
We'll need to calculate the IBUs from the initial recipe and give you the amounts of bittering hops for your new recipe adjusted for a 3.5 gallon boil.
  1. Is that the largest volume you can boil comfortably in your kettle?
  2. How do you chill your wort?
For dry hopping a NEIPA you really want to catch it toward the middle of the fermentation, not so much the end. The biotransformation that takes place is key to the flavor profile.

Do you have Galaxy in stock? Or do you need to buy/order it?
You could substitute for something easier obtainable, it's only 1 oz in 5.

I still wonder where the fermentables in your recipe came from. The hops are, but the malt bill is nothing like Alvarado's. You've got 40% wheat in there, they got none.
 
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Fermentables came from a thread on here somewhere.

I have a 5 gallon kettle but I do have defoamer so I can push boil volume to a bit above 4 without too much boil-over concern. I chill by throwing the kettle into the sink in an ice bath. Maybe I should consider fermentables more in line with that recipe with necessary malt.

Regarding the galaxy I'll be trying to get all this from my home brew store but I'm open to ordering hops if needed. I haven't bulk ordered hops so i buy on a per brew basis thus far.
 

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Fermentables came from a thread on here somewhere.

I have a 5 gallon kettle but I do have defoamer so I can push boil volume to a bit above 4 without too much boil-over concern. I chill by throwing the kettle into the sink in an ice bath. Maybe I should consider fermentables more in line with that recipe with necessary malt.

Regarding the galaxy I'll be trying to get all this from my home brew store but I'm open to ordering hops if needed. I haven't bulk ordered hops so i buy on a per brew basis thus far.
3.5-4 gallon boil is the max for a 5 gallon kettle. It's OK, just wondered if you could boil more.

Just use cold water from the tap to chill your kettle, save the ice for when the wort temps are within 30-40F of your target ferm temps.
Circulate the sink water with a large spoon or paddle. 2-3 changes of water should bring that down to where you want.

No need to change if you like wheat, but it won't be like Alvarado's.
There's this Wheat NEIPA that's really tasty and one of the best beers they brew, IMO: Accumulation by New Belgium. Sadly it's seasonal, but I'm working on a clone to have it year round.

Mosaic and Galaxy are somewhat similar. I think the Galaxy is a nice touch, but with 2x the Mosaic, it won't be the star, may even get drowned out. Galaxy runs $30 a pound, $5 for 2 oz (YakimaValleyHops.com), and chances are they won't have it forever, it tends to sell out in relatively short time.
 

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I have been looking at the extract brewing section and following this NEIPA recipe. Has anyone tried it out yet? I am thinking of giving it a go tomorrow. My brew kettle is just under 7 gal so I could do a full volume boil.

My big question is the mini-mash. From what I understand, you put everything in a steeping bag do a sort of modified sparge and then boil. I would be using low mineral bottled water , would I still have to add the calcium chloride and calcium sulfate?

John Palmer recommends boiling oats first before adding them to the mash, would this be applicable to a whole grain version only? I was wondering if I boiled them, poured that into the steeping bag and then proceeded if that would work.

Regarding the extract (DME) all I really have access to over here is extra light, light, amber, and dark. Is the pilsner equivalent to the light of extra light DME?

Thanks!
 
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