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AzOr

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Does anyone do this? I'm thinking of creating 6 gallons of wort then freezing half to use later. I have two 3 gallon kegs and want to split batches to play with yeast and hops.

For example, I was thinking of making a base porter and then brewing a raspberry porter and maybe a mint porter (or maybe putting chiles). I only have one small Anvil fermenter so that's why I was thinking of putting half the wort into gallon jugs and using later.

I can't see why this process would have any issues but was wondering if others do this. I usually do 5g batches but would like to do more experimentation.
 

bobeer

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i've never done this but i'd assume if you followed sanitary processes you'd be ok. I'd probably boil it first though just to make sure you sanitize the wort.
 

rburrelli

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i've never done this but i'd assume if you followed sanitary processes you'd be ok. I'd probably boil it first though just to make sure you sanitize the wort.
So you want to reboil the wort that was just boiled?
 

IslandLizard

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[Edited for clarity]
If you're boiling it, and you can transfer, freeze, then thaw, and transfer into your fermenter, all in a sanitary way it should be just fine. Oxygenate/aerate and have a healthy yeast culture ready to pitch.
 
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AzOr

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Yeah I was thinking of mashing a full 5.5 gallon then splitting the wort in half.
One half would go in the freezer and I’d start the boil on the other half.

This way I could experiment with adjuncts etc. also it would give me a chance to drink through the first keg at my slow pace.
 

IslandLizard

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Are you going to boil all the the wort, then freeze part of it? Or freeze raw, unboiled wort straight from the mash/lauter? Then boil it for a new batch?

I know 2.5-3 gallons is a large volume to store. And when it freezes it expands, so keep that in mind when selecting your containers. If you don't reboil, or at least pasteurize at 150F for 10-20', the containers should be sanitize-able before re-opening.

I make large batches of soup stock and freeze them in 1 - 1.25 gallon ice cream buckets, leaving ~3/4 - 1 inch of headspace. None ever got busted.
 
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AzOr

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No I would collect the 6ish gallons of raw wort straight from the mash tun. Then set aside half of it to cool. Once cooled I would put it in gallon jugs and place in freezer.
The other half I would proceed with regular 60 min boil. Then pitch yeast like normal.

I could then come back to my frozen wort at a later date. I would thaw and start my regular boil and brew process.

I freeze pressed apple juice often. I usually fill to 3 or 4 inches from top. I’m guessing 8 or 10 oz shy of a full gallon.
 

Mtrhdltd

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No experience on this, but I think your method would work. I like the idea of boil after thawing, but just guessing here. Try it and let us know your results.
 

IslandLizard

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No experience on this, but I think your method would work. I like the idea of boil after thawing, but just guessing here. Try it and let us know your results.
The OP clarified he's freezing half of the raw (unboiled) wort:
No I would collect the 6ish gallons of raw wort straight from the mash tun. Then set aside half of it to cool. Once cooled I would put it in gallon jugs and place in freezer.
So he does need to boil it after thawing it out, which he plans to do.
 

IslandLizard

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No I would collect the 6ish gallons of raw wort straight from the mash tun. Then set aside half of it to cool. Once cooled I would put it in gallon jugs and place in freezer.
If you want to preserve your mash profile from mashing at say 154-156F, you really should do a thorough mashout. Otherwise the enzymes remain active while it's slowly cooling down, changing the dextrin/sugar profile/balance.
 
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AzOr

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If you want to preserve your mash profile from mashing at say 154-156F, you really should do a thorough mashout. Otherwise the enzymes remain active while it's slowly cooling down, changing the dextrin/sugar profile/balance.
Yes absolutely. My current brewing method is to mash and lauter at night. Then wake up and start my boil early next morning. It’s the only way I can find time to brew w little ones at home.

so I definitely do a mash out since my raw wort sits around outside overnight.
 

Mtrhdltd

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I understood what the OP was saying, and was agreeing with them. Sorry if that wasn't how it sounded.
 

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In the vein of this thread, would something like this work post boil/pre-pitch without affecting the hop profile to badly? No idea why this might come up other than an “oh ****” moment but still I’m curious.
 

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Just a thought, if you’re going to do a split batch, why not look into hot cubing? As the cube is sterilising itself when you add the hot wort, it’s stays shelf stable for several months. You could split it into as many small jerrycans as you like and use them whenever
 

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My current brewing method is to mash and lauter at night.
In that scenario has your lautered wort cooled significantly by the time you wake up and before you start the boil?

If so, there's no need for a mashout to preserve your mash profile. It's pretty much set at that point. And the wort should be relatively well fermentable due to the fairly long time spent below 150F. As long as you didn't start the mash at or above 158F. ;)
 

Vale71

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Just a thought, if you’re going to do a split batch, why not look into hot cubing? As the cube is sterilising itself when you add the hot wort, it’s stays shelf stable for several months. You could split it into as many small jerrycans as you like and use them whenever
No it doesn't. At that temperature you're not sterilizing anything and in the course of several months lots of nasty infections can develop in your wort. The result might even be dangerous to your health.
 

OzGolfPro

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No it doesn't. At that temperature you're not sterilizing anything and in the course of several months lots of nasty infections can develop in your wort. The result might even be dangerous to your health.
I think your mistaken, as long as the wort is transferred above 90C and the cube is made of HDPE with an airtight lid, it would be shelf stable for at least a few months. This is how most fresh wort kits are made.
 

Vale71

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No I'm not. "Fresh wort" kits do not exist in reality AFAIK, they either have dry malt extract or malt extract that has been concentrated to a point that the extract itself is poisonous to microorganisms. Untreated, freshly boiled wort is microbiologically unstabe and must be pitched ASAP in order to turn it into microbiologically (more) stable beer.
 

SanPancho

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No I'm not. "Fresh wort" kits do not exist in reality AFAIK, they either have dry malt extract or malt extract that has been concentrated to a point that the extract itself is poisonous to microorganisms. Untreated, freshly boiled wort is microbiologically unstabe and must be pitched ASAP in order to turn it into microbiologically (more) stable beer.
You should tell the Aussies that before they all get botulism.
 

NGD

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Granted Aussies and Oz need a steady supply of botulism to keep the gut microbiome strong.

 

Jayjay1976

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If you package the wort in heat-sealed bags they will make very efficient use of freezer space. Either before freezing or when you're ready to use, float them in a sous vide tub @ 150 to pasteurize.
 

IslandLizard

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No I'm not. "Fresh wort" kits do not exist in reality AFAIK, they either have dry malt extract or malt extract that has been concentrated to a point that the extract itself is poisonous to microorganisms. Untreated, freshly boiled wort is microbiologically unstabe and must be pitched ASAP in order to turn it into microbiologically (more) stable beer.
I've seen posts here where brewers buy "fresh wort," not condensed, syrup (LME), or dry powder (DME). From what I've gathered they are sold in "cubitainers" or some other vessel, and have been boiled. I guess they could be straight from the lauter tun too.

Those fresh wort offerings don't seem to be common in the U.S. except for homebrewers buying a bucket (or a few) of fresh wort at a brewery for some special event, cause, or competition. Those buys are planned in advance, it's not me walking into Heavy Seas and ask the bartender or an assistant brewer for a fill up of wort.
 

OzGolfPro

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I've seen posts here where brewers buy "fresh wort," not condensed, syrup (LME), or dry powder (DME). From what I've gathered they are sold in "cubitainers" or some other vessel, and have been boiled. I guess they could be straight from the lauter tun too.

Those fresh wort offerings don't seem to be common in the U.S. except for homebrewers buying a bucket (or a few) of fresh wort at a brewery for some special event, cause, or competition. Those buys are planned in advance, it's not me walking into Heavy Seas and ask the bartender or an assistant brewer for a fill up of wort.
Ah interesting, I was not aware this isn’t a thing in the US. Hot cubing (or no chill) is quite popular here in Australia due to our hot summers and occasional restrictions on water use. The fresh wort kits here are sold in cubes or “cubitainers” as you called them, and are actually fresh wort pulled straight from lauter. They are sold at most home brew suppliers as a higher quality alternative to the pre hopped extract kits. As far as I can tell no botulism in people who have used them, but thankyou for your concern.

No chill is definitely not a perfect method, if your brewing a hoppy beer you would need to move some additions later in the boil, but it does work well providing you follow good sanitation. As long as the wort is transferred above pasteurising temps (90c or 194f) and is stored correctly, you’ll be fine. And it would keep your freezer empty to store more hops in, you’re welcome.

Just my two cents, take it or leave it:mug:
 

IslandLizard

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[...] The fresh wort kits here are sold in cubes or “cubitainers” as you called them, and are actually fresh wort pulled straight from lauter. They are sold at most home brew suppliers as a higher quality alternative to the pre hopped extract kits. As far as I can tell no botulism in people who have used them, but thankyou for your concern.
I wouldn't be surprised if that wort is UV irradiated, and thus sterilized, on her way to the (also UV treated) cubes.
 
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AzOr

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Way off topic, but that’s ok.

Could botulism survive; the boil, fermentation and the change in ph?
 

NGD

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Hot cubing is certainly not a regular thing in the states. One of the things I like about this hobby. There are dozens of different ways to get the same result. Delicious beer....mmmmmmm beer
4B2C0969-0157-44DC-97BD-077D26357ADE.jpeg


plus I like hearing how other people go about their craft. I occasionally pick up good ideas.
 
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khannon

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I like the sound of "hot cubing" makes me think of seven of nine(mmmm.. donuts..) ..

As far as I know botulism can survive up to ~240F, but you have to have spores there to begin with.

I'm not sure I'm the right audience for fresh wort, but if it were available here, that might be great. Steep your specialties, don't worry about water salts etc.. Sounds like it might take hour(s) of an all-grain brewer's day.
 

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I dunno how much more convenience you can ask for than what LME/DME already provides. Dilute it in RO water, base line mineral salts are already in the extract. You don't even have to boil it for certain styles just heat it up above 150 to pasteurize, whirlpool your hops or dry hop in the fermenter, and boom. Need more bittering? Make a hop tea. Not to mention extract is relatively cheap to buy and ship, you can get it at any brew shop, and if you worry about shelf life either freeze or refrigerate it long term. The high water content is what makes fresh wort bulky, heavy and unstable over time. Extract solves all of that. Still not easy enough? FFS just buy some beer, I hear you can get it just about everywhere.;)
 

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I don't know if I am misunderstanding this. I believe kits that are a bag of wort you pour into a fermenter and add yeast to are pretty common. Is that what we are discussing? About 90% of people I knew in Manitoba make beer that way? Festa-Brew was really common. If you are careful with fermentation and sanitation you get reasonable results. In Manitoba Canada its no more expensive than DME kits so as long as you aren't paying shipping its quite cheap. As far as just buying beer, most people I know that use it are doing it for cost savings, it requires little effort and is easily 25% of the cost of buying beer in the liquor store. Its worth noting from my experience in grad school in Chicago that very cheap beer in the US is much cheaper than in Canada but "craft" beer tends to be at least as expensive. In Canada the price difference between very cheap beer and good beer is much less (at least than Chicago).
 

ba-brewer

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I have froze extra wort from brew days before to turn into starters. It seemed the freezing process made the sugars condense some how and there would be places the wort would turn to a syrup almost like LME. I did them in freezer bags and the syrup would be stuck to the bag, freezing in a milk jug might be difficult to get out.
 

Mtrhdltd

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Botulism will survive boiling temps. I only know this from canning stock, it has to be pressure processed instead of water bath. Not sure about ph or alcohols effect on it though.
 

khannon

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Botulism will survive boiling temps. I only know this from canning stock, it has to be pressure processed instead of water bath. Not sure about ph or alcohols effect on it though.
Yeah, it's all about temp vs pressure vs time.. I think 240 is the #(in F though). As pressure goes up, so does temp. All of this being said, botulism spores need to be present at canning/bottling to be a problem. I hate to sound like Van Morrison right now( I love his earlier stuff), but, if you seal it at boiling or near, and your sanitation is good, you are probably fine.
Wow, breathylizer vs typing would have me not driving home now...

stay safe all...
 

OzGolfPro

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It looks like I’ve really opened a can of worms here, I apologise. I can understand the trepidation, it is a newish process and it apparently sparked the same sort of controversy when it started over here.

I have contacted a local brew supplier who produces large quantities of the fresh wort kits, using the no chill method only to pasteurise - no UV treatment or further process required - and says they remain shelf stable for up to 12 months.

Below is a video link explaining for anyone who is interested.

 

OzGolfPro

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Forgot to mention, the fresh wort kits are good. I’ve only tried them a few times before going to AG, but they were good. They didn’t save any time over the pre hopped extract kits that I was using, but they were definitely better quality, without that extracty taste.
 

Vale71

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Botulism will survive boiling temps. I only know this from canning stock, it has to be pressure processed instead of water bath. Not sure about ph or alcohols effect on it though.
There's no alcohol in wort and before fermentation has happened PH hasn't dropped low enough either. On the other hand there are plenty of sugars so basically you're packaging a nutrient-rich culture medium hoping that all will go well. Oh well, it's all fun and games until someone comes down with a severe case of food poisoning...
 

Mtrhdltd

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There's no alcohol in wort and before fermentation has happened PH hasn't dropped low enough either. On the other hand there are plenty of sugars so basically you're packaging a nutrient-rich culture medium hoping that all will go well. Oh well, it's all fun and games until someone comes down with a severe case of food poisoning...
Ha, good point. I guess I should remember the point of the thread before posting.
 

acrowe

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Yes I can imagine there would be some risk of contamination sealing fresh wort and using it later, Lots of people home can their own salmon, I don't. I am guessing the commercial process must be pretty reliable as a lot of people use it. I would guess its not radically different than apple juice or less acid juices for risk though. I would have no fear of freezing wort I just made if I could be reasonably confident it didn't get contaminated a lot during the cool down to frozen.
 
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