Freeze concentration

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

jeepinjeepin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
6,357
Reaction score
1,041
Location
Winston-Salem
BamaProud said:
Thanks, I actually searched all 11,000 replies to the original Apfelwein thread and found some discussion starting at post #8642.

I think I need to go ahead and start another 5 gal batch, as of now I have 5 ways I want to try my first batch. Plain, backwseetened, carbed/plain, carbed/backsweetened and now freeze concentrated.
I've been step feeding an Apfelwein. I've not made an actual thread but mentioned it a few places. It's above 14% now. It may make it to 17%. Should I freeze it?
 

BamaProud

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
887
Reaction score
392
I don't know, but from what I have been reading you essentially half your volume, doubling the ABV in the Freeze concentration process. However, I don't think I would freeze until after all fermentation is done. Let the yeast make alcohol naturally as long as they will/can.
 

Unferth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
423
Reaction score
66
Location
Vancouver
I've been step feeding an Apfelwein. I've not made an actual thread but mentioned it a few places. It's above 14% now. It may make it to 17%. Should I freeze it?
Hey jeepin, we always end up on these threads together, no?

If you recall, I had a 16 % ABV cyser I tried to freeze and had a heck of a time doing it. I had to borrow a friends super-deep freezer, and it took a couple days to freeze then, but it did it. And wowza,what a drink... We use it for cough syrup, but you could easily use it for pain management, haha.

I would advise putting it in as small of bottles as you can get away with to freeze it.
 

nwchemist

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
3
Reaction score
2
This may help. The body's mechanism to fight both ethanol and methanol is alcohol dehydrogenase, an enzyme that breaks down the alcohols. Methanol binds and is oxidized and generally forms formaldehyde, which can cause a number of adverse effects. This debate about methanol is not really an issue because ethanol is a competitive inhibitor for the reaction, so as long as it is in greater quantity the methanol will not bind to the enzyme. This is also the "cure" for methanol poisoning as well as ethylene glycol.
 

Unferth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
423
Reaction score
66
Location
Vancouver
This may help. The body's mechanism to fight both ethanol and methanol is alcohol dehydrogenase, an enzyme that breaks down the alcohols. Methanol binds and is oxidized and generally forms formaldehyde, which can cause a number of adverse effects. This debate about methanol is not really an issue because ethanol is a competitive inhibitor for the reaction, so as long as it is in greater quantity the methanol will not bind to the enzyme. This is also the "cure" for methanol poisoning as well as ethylene glycol.
That is a very helpful post; welcome to the forum.
 

krackin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
1,102
Reaction score
268
Yikes! Glad I never did that, only pretended, and I'll never do it again.
 

jeepinjeepin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
6,357
Reaction score
1,041
Location
Winston-Salem
Wow! I wonder if policy has changed since the Basic Brewing guys got their response back or if it is up to interpretation within TTB?
 

Pappers_

Moderator
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
17,919
Reaction score
4,406
Location
Chicago
On the advice of legal counsel, the site's administrator allows discussion of freeze concentration but does not allow any discussion of distillation. The statements earlier in this thread that freeze concentration is legally the same as distillation are incorrect.

Please do not discuss distillation.
 

Johnnyhitch1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
2,114
Reaction score
247
Location
SiX-ThReE-OnE
Took 6 12 oz bottles of Grape apfelwine frozen in a container over night.
2 hours in a funnel, first runnings were 16oz

Has to be around 28-30%.
Cheers to Apfel Eisen Wine!!


Anyone Freeze concentrate EdWort Apfelwein(original recipe). What is the the final product like?
Just found this...so theres a reply!

Nice and warm with a smooth crisp apple flavor. A sipper for sure and i wouldnt even have more than a couple oz of it in a sitting. This stuff WILL put you on your ass while destroying your next day.
 

oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 31, 2012
Messages
883
Reaction score
144
Freeze in a two liter bottle and drain off throw away the ice. Re freeze the liquid you got the first time and drain off again throw away the ice. Do this three times and on the third time bottle what is left and throw away the slush. Now you have something. Mike
 

Kdog22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
333
Reaction score
34
Location
Spring
Wait so freeze concentration for home consumption, is perfectly legal in the US?
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
1
That is what I'm getting from this. It also looks like it's legal to sell if you've a license to sell beer. Kinda neat.
 

twofocused

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
81
Reaction score
8
Location
Clayton
I need to get another cider with an ale yeast going for this.

Hangover here we come.
 

wilserbrewer

BIAB Expert Tailor
HBT Sponsor
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
11,264
Reaction score
2,848
Location
New Jersey
Hangover here we come.
Exactly the problem with freeze distillation, and why I wouldn't make this a "house" product and consume large quantities on a regular basis. With freeze concentration, you are getting the acetone, methyl, ethyl, the phenol's and fusels, as opposed to distilatiion where an effort is made to discard the poison and keep only the ethyl. Throw out the heads and tails, and keep the hearts as they say...not that I know anything about it, Just heard it from a friend who knows a guy...;)
 

BamaProud

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2013
Messages
887
Reaction score
392
How would the phenols increase or be created because of the freezing process?

If I freeze concentrate a gal...down to 1/2 gal, there would be the same amount of phenols in the pre and post frozen stuff, just in higher concentration. Seems to reason you would have the same side effects from drinking the gallon of pre-frozen stuff as you would with the 1/2 gal concentrated stuff.
 

wilserbrewer

BIAB Expert Tailor
HBT Sponsor
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
11,264
Reaction score
2,848
Location
New Jersey
How would the phenols increase or be created because of the freezing process?

If I freeze concentrate a gal...down to 1/2 gal, there would be the same amount of phenols in the pre and post frozen stuff, just in higher concentration. Seems to reason you would have the same side effects from drinking the gallon of pre-frozen stuff as you would with the 1/2 gal concentrated stuff.
I agree, you would be getting the same overall amount of phenols and methyl, but half the water needed to flush the poison through your system...
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
1
The problem (for me at least) is that Vodka is about the nastiest stuff on the planet. I would rather drink straight everclear than vodka.
 

Kdog22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
333
Reaction score
34
Location
Spring
For those of you that have done this successfully.. I'd imagine that this process can introduce alot of oxygen into the wine during the whole process. Is that much of a factor to worry about when making this?

Does further aging help the end product even better or is it about as good as it gets once the process is done?
 

T_Baggins

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
821
Reaction score
87
Freeze concentration is NOT legal in ALL states, some states do not differentiate between "concentration" and "distillation" ... but federal guidelines permit it. How do you think "Moonshiners" on TV get away with it? notice you never actually see a "transaction" ... that's still agin the law.
 

emjay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
12,771
Reaction score
1,717
Location
Toronto
Freeze concentration is NOT legal in ALL states, some states do not differentiate between "concentration" and "distillation" ... but federal guidelines permit it. How do you think "Moonshiners" on TV get away with it? notice you never actually see a "transaction" ... that's still agin the law.
Moonshiners "gets away with it" because it's in large part fiction...
 

T_Baggins

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
821
Reaction score
87
Moonshiners "gets away with it" because it's in large part fiction...
Exactly my point, distillation being federally deregulated, they can show parts of the process but sales still being illegal, they never show a transaction. Making one believe what they are seeing as being illegal with all the TV drama fake crap they do to even make a show. If they even distill anything at all for the show, it's probably just water anyway.
 

Descender

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
244
Reaction score
38
Location
Fresno
How would the phenols increase or be created because of the freezing process?

If I freeze concentrate a gal...down to 1/2 gal, there would be the same amount of phenols in the pre and post frozen stuff, just in higher concentration. Seems to reason you would have the same side effects from drinking the gallon of pre-frozen stuff as you would with the 1/2 gal concentrated stuff.
This!
 

T_Baggins

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
821
Reaction score
87
Even with all these phenols and fusels etc etc etc... concentrating it would pose little danger, due to the trace amounts one would die from ethanol poisoning long before the others posed any threat.
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
1
Even with all these phenols and fusels etc etc etc... concentrating it would pose little danger, due to the trace amounts one would die from ethanol poisoning long before the others posed any threat.
Yeah, I figured that out.

On the topic of "moonshiners" I don't watch TV so I don't know about that show.
 

wilserbrewer

BIAB Expert Tailor
HBT Sponsor
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
11,264
Reaction score
2,848
Location
New Jersey
Even with all these phenols and fusels etc etc etc... concentrating it would pose little danger, due to the trace amounts one would die from ethanol poisoning long before the others posed any threat.
Yes agreed, perhaps not dangerous, but it has the potential to give you a hangover whereby you wish you were dead...



Drink a quart of water and take 3 aspirin before going to sleep tol help reduce the effects of excessive Apfelwein consumption as well as the urge to call EdWort a M'F**kR the next morning!
:D
 

Kdog22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
333
Reaction score
34
Location
Spring
Made some applejack this weekend from an apple wine I started back in April. Final product = Delicious.
 

Descender

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
244
Reaction score
38
Location
Fresno
This is what I'm using lately. Minimizes exposure to oxygen. A two liter bottle inverted on to a quart sized Gatorade bottle. The 2 liter fits right in the mouth of the quart bottle just snuggly enough to allow the air to escape.

ForumRunner_20140117_045554.jpg
 

Kdog22

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
333
Reaction score
34
Location
Spring
This is what I'm using lately. Minimizes exposure to oxygen. A two liter bottle inverted on to a quart sized Gatorade bottle. The 2 liter fits right in the mouth of the quart bottle just snuggly enough to allow the air to escape.
I've had great luck using that same catch bottle as well. 1 gallon water/milk jugs also fit into the mouth of those bottles, too.


I didn't have one of those bottles handy the other day when I freeze concentrated my white grape peach wine. But it still turned out delicious:

 
Top