Found these recipes; too much spice?

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eulipion2

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Hello,
I found a couple saison recipes here, and, after a quick Google translation, copied them down for future attempts. But one thing is really throwing me off: the amount of spices the recipes' creator used. Have a look at the recipes:

Recipe 1
3000g American 6-row
500g Munich Type I
500g Vienna Malt
500g Caramalt 15
500g Special B
1L Pomegranate juice 15 min
25g hibiscus flowers (dried) 15 min
15g coffee beans (cracked) 3 min
1 oz Crystal hops (3.3%) 60 min
200g White Labs WLP565 Saison I
Brettanomyces

Recipe 2
1500g American 6-row
400g flaked rye
570g flaked oats
200g honey
13.0 tsp coriander seeds, 5 min
20 tsp clementine peel (dried), 5 min
4.0 tsp black peppercorns, 5 min
4.0 tsp grains of paradise, 5 min
??? 2500g German 2-row Pils ???
28.35g Crystal hops (3.3%), 60 min
200g White Labs WLP565 Saison I
Brettanomyces

For Recipe 2, the 2500g Pils malt may be a mistake. It looks like the author may have accidentally cut-and-pasted it, so don't hold me to that. But look at the spices, especially in Recipe 2: 20 teaspoons of Clementine peel? 4 of peppercorns and grains of paradise? I made a holiday spice beer once. I accidentally used 1 oz. of orange peel instead of .5 oz., and I couldn't drink the beer for a whole year!

Also, do saisons typically have Brett? I don't have experience with brettanomyces, but the saison I made without it tasted just fine.

Please let me know if I'm looking at these recipes right.

Thanks!
 

Enkerli

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Some measurements weren't properly converted (interpret them as grams, not ts). The Clementine peel was 30g, IIRC. Spices are present but not as much as you might expect.
As you surely know, most saisons don't include any spice.
These weren't supposed to be to-style. I've been experimenting with spices and, though these were good, they're really far from what you might expect from a "saison" in the BJCP sense. Even the grainbills are "off," on purpose. I'm pretty sure the 2500g of pils is accurate. I could check.
The Brett is less of a stylistic issue, but it's not needed. It's a culture I got from a friend (and fellow MontreAler).
 
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eulipion2

eulipion2

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Thanks, Enkerli! 30g sounds much more reasonable on the Clementine peel.

Just to clarify, Recipe 2 calls for 2500g German Pils in addition to 1500g 6-row?

Thanks

EDIT: Did you use coffee beans, like you'd buy at Starbucks, or fresh coffee berries? If beans, did you crack them or use them whole?

Thanks!
 

Enkerli

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Actually, I used German pilsner malt as my base. (Got that from yet another MontreAler.) No 6-row in this batch. I think I reassigned my 6R to other experimentations. Since then, I bought a whole bag of Pilsner malt because I'll be doing a lot of Belgian-style experimentation. Including wild ales.
The "coffee beans" were actually dried coffee cherries. Got those from a barista friend. (I'm also a coffee geek. Friends don't let friends go to Starbucks.) Of course, BTP doesn't have an inventory item for coffee cherries.

The parts which may not have translated accurately from my blogpost:
These were planned recipes for the same day, not actual logs. I modified them a fair deal.
These weren't really meant to be saisons. My title had to do with seasonal brewing.
The first one was inspired by hibiscus tea I've had in Africa and in African contexts here. The second one was meant to be close to a wit in inspiration.
IIRC, the wheat was actually wheat flour.
The hops in the Bretteuse were actually French Strisselspalt. Didn't find them in BTP.

(I guess I really need a more customized app. When BeerAlchemy comes to the iPhone, I'll probably buy both the Mac and iPhone versions and take notes while in the brewery.)

BTW, if you want the BTP files, just tell me so.

Here's a copy/paste from my actual batch of "recipe 2" (the one I called «Bretteuse épicée», as «bretteuse» is Québécois for "lazy one" and there was some Brett in it). This beer was one of my most successful in the recent past. The honey is a nice addition and the spices are remarkably well-blended. I've tried it again recently and I was really pleased. The yeast culture makes a big difference as this beer tastes a good deal like those brewed by the guy who gave me the slurry.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bretteuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

General
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Category: Belgian and French Ale
Subcategory: Saison
Recipe Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5 gal.
Volume Boiled: 6 gal.
Mash Efficiency: 72 %
Total Grain/Extract: 13.79 lbs.
Total Hops: 1.7 oz.
Calories (12 fl. oz.): 287.2
Cost to Brew: $41.98 (USD)
Cost per Bottle (12 fl. oz.): $0.79 (USD)

Ingredients
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.98 lbs. German 2-row Pils
1.13 lbs. German Vienna
1.38 lbs. Munich Malt
0.95 lbs. Wheat Flaked
1.35 lbs. Honey
1.7 oz. Spalt Spalter (Pellets, 4.75 %AA) boiled 60 minutes.
Yeast: White Labs WLP565 Belgian Saison I

Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vital Statistics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Gravity: 1.072
Terminal Gravity: 1.014
Color: 6.57 SRM
Bitterness: 35.5 IBU
Alcohol (%volume): 7.7 %

--
Results prepared by BeerTools.com
BeerTools Beer Making Resources and Home Brewing Recipe Calculator and Formulator
 

Beezer94

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1500g 2-row is approximately 3.3lbs
2500g pils is approximately 5.5lbs

so 8.8lbs total for a 1.048-1.055 with 5gal brew
 

Enkerli

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Seems like my comment in moderation. In case this one goes through: my actual batch had almost 9lbs of pilsner and no 6R. It was a 7.7%ABV beer.
 
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eulipion2

eulipion2

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Thanks Enkerli! So, just for reference, did you like the beers? Would you change the spices/amounts? Don't really care about styles, just enjoyability.
 

Enkerli

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Hoping the other message will get out of moderation. Yes, I really enjoy these two beers. The Bretteuse was one of my most successful beers in the recent past. But the yeast culture makes a huge difference. That beer tastes a good deal like those brewed by the guy who gave me the slurry.
 

Enkerli

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Thanks, BradSul!
I came to HBT after I got BackType notification that eulipion2's post was pinging my blogpost. I'm still unclear about the way it works, especially for free accounts.
 

bradsul

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I have no idea what your first sentence said (;)) but the moderation is simply to help prevent spam. If you have less than a certain number of posts (I think 25 but don't quote me on that) and have been a member for less than X days (I think 30 but same deal) there are certain keywords that will get your post moderated rather than posted normally. It just means they have to be physically looked at by a moderator and validated and then they appear as normal.

The simple solution of course is to keep posting. :)
 
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eulipion2

eulipion2

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Enkerli,
The recipe for Bretteuse épicée (aka Recipe 2) from your blog calls for flaked oats and rye. Any reason they didn't make it into your actual brew?

Thanks for all the feedback. These recipes look really good!
 

Enkerli

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No specific reason that I remember. It was actually supposed to be rye flour. I now have rye malt and I may do a similar recipe using that.
 
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