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abraxas

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I am thinking that force carbing at a higher temperature with pressure adjusted upwards to match the final Volumes of CO2 desired should be much quicker according to some law of chemistry I have long since forgotten. Are there any disadvantages to this?
 
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abraxas

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To clarify what I mean, the increased kinetic energy at a higher temperature should result in faster carbonation. Adjusting the pressure up to counter the decreased solubility of CO2 should alow one to reach a desired level of carbonation much faster.

A quick google search suggests that a good rule of thumb is 2x the reaction rate for every 10C increase in temperature. If this follows through with solubility (which intuitively it seems it would), raising the temp to 70 degrees instead of 50 should encourage 2x the carbonation rate.

This is, of course, as long as there are no negative effects on the beer, by doing this.


The other thing I am thinking about is tipping the kegs on their side. Increasing the surface area should have a significant improvement in force carbonation times...
 

Brewsmith

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If you really want to save time, just shake the keg. That will get the CO2 into solution fast.
Carbing at serving temperature takes about a week at around 12 or so lbs. I have not tried it at higher temps.
 
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abraxas

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Brewsmith said:
If you really want to save time, just shake the keg. That will get the CO2 into solution fast.
Carbing at serving temperature takes about a week at around 12 or so lbs. I have not tried it at higher temps.

Shaking the keg seems to carry way too much risk of overcarbonation.

In fact I just started force carbing two kegs last night at room temp and they I am pretty sure they will be perfect by tomorrow.
 

Yooper

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Boy, I can't remember why I think this- but I think that co2 dissolves more readily at COLD temperatures, not warm. I don't remember why I believe that- I mean, I've been out of school for more than 25 years. I could be wrong.
 

Brewsmith

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Shaking has nothing to do with overcarbonation. Carbonation has to do with temperature and pressure. Once the CO2 is into solution to the maximum at that pressure, no amout of shaking will increase the amount of CO2 in solution.

The simplest way to carb is to set the regulator at desired carbing pressure for the given temperature and leave it. Shaking just helps it go faster by breaking up the CO2 into smaller bubbles, increasing the surface area and making it dissolve into solution faster.
 

Brewsmith

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YooperBrew said:
Boy, I can't remember why I think this- but I think that co2 dissolves more readily at COLD temperatures, not warm. I don't remember why I believe that- I mean, I've been out of school for more than 25 years. I could be wrong.
You are correct. More CO2 dissolves ito solution at colder temperatures, than the same pressure at a higher temp. Basically you need to raise the pressure for a higher temp to get the same carbonation level.

What I don't know about is that if it goes faster once you compensate for temperature, which was the original question.
 

Brewsmith

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If you really want to make it go faster without shaking, rig up an aeration stone at the bottom of the keg to the gas in.
 

TexLaw

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You have a problem with your premise, abraxas. Dissolution of gas into liquid is not a chemical reaction in the respect of what you are looking at. Raising the temperature decreases solubility of gasses into liquids, although you can compensate for that with higher pressure.

Even if you could get the gas dissolved more quickly, you'll run into problems when you cool that beer down to serving temperature. Simply cooling probably will not reduce the higher head pressure to your desired serving temperature, so you'll have to bleed off pressure or deal with overcarbonated beer.

If you really want to get carbonation faster without all the hassle of finding the sweet spot, just cool the beer down to your desired temperature, set your regulator to the pressure at which you will keep the beer, hook it all up, and shake.


TL
 
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abraxas

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TexLaw said:
You have a problem with your premise, abraxas. Dissolution of gas into liquid is not a chemical reaction in the respect of what you are looking at. Raising the temperature decreases solubility of gasses into liquids, although you can compensate for that with higher pressure.

Even if you could get the gas dissolved more quickly, you'll run into problems when you cool that beer down to serving temperature. Simply cooling probably will not reduce the higher head pressure to your desired serving temperature, so you'll have to bleed off pressure or deal with overcarbonated beer.

If you really want to get carbonation faster without all the hassle of finding the sweet spot, just cool the beer down to your desired temperature, set your regulator to the pressure at which you will keep the beer, hook it all up, and shake.


TL
Increased temperature (increased kinetic energy) is going to cause the carbonation to go more quickly for a similar reason that it would increase the rate of a chemical reaction.

Of course you would have to standardize your volumetric chart to your desired serving temperature per molar solute, but that is simple enough. (by the way, cooling the beer should increase the density of the gas, thereby decreasing your Volumes CO2 per liter, from the non-adjusted value).

SO with an adjusted chart, one should be able to determine a high T carb temp and carb up their keg in 1/2 the time without the risk of overcarbing....
 

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So, you've carbonated it in 5 minutes or 5 hours or two days. Now set it in the corner for 3 weeks to condition.

You're forgetting that the kinetic energy of the gas in solution is higher, so the CO2 is more likely to come out of solution as well.
 
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abraxas

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david_42 said:
So, you've carbonated it in 5 minutes or 5 hours or two days. Now set it in the corner for 3 weeks to condition.

You're forgetting that the kinetic energy of the gas in solution is higher, so the CO2 is more likely to come out of solution as well.

It looks like about two days based on testing.


While the CO2 comes out of solution faster, the net result will push towards equilibrium more quickly. Just like in a chemical reaction......
 

budbo

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Boy, I can't remember why I think this- but I think that co2 dissolves more readily at COLD temperatures, not warm. I don't remember why I believe that- I mean, I've been out of school for more than 25 years. I could be wrong.
You are correct, the Beer can also hold more CO2 when it is colder.

Of course you would have to standardize your volumetric chart to your desired serving temperature per molar solute, but that is simple enough. (by the way, cooling the beer should increase the density of the gas, thereby decreasing your Volumes CO2 per liter, from the non-adjusted value).
. At a constant pressure the colder beer will absorb and retain more CO2.
Much like the Ocean does, as the Earth warms the Oceans release CO2 as it cools they absorb more (contrary to popular Al Gore beliefs, CO2 levels lag global temp changes not cause them)
 

Brewing Clamper

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Carbing at a higher temperature will take longer than at lower temperature at the same pressure. It's physics, ask your professor. Take a look at the "kinetic energy" you keep mentioning on all sides of the system. With constant pressure, as you raise the temperature, the dissolved molecules move faster, and with the increased energy break free. Having the same pressure in the head space means that the speed of the non-dissolved molecules stays constant, therefore it dissolves at the same rate. If you were to somehow be able to raise the temperature of the gas without raising the temperature of the liquid (ideal) then yes it would carb faster, but only because it would increase the pressure of the head space, creating more collisions of the gas molecules with the fluid.
 
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abraxas

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Brewing Clamper said:
Carbing at a higher temperature will take longer than at lower temperature at the same pressure. It's physics, ask your professor. Take a look at the "kinetic energy" you keep mentioning on all sides of the system. With constant pressure, as you raise the temperature, the dissolved molecules move faster, and with the increased energy break free. Having the same pressure in the head space means that the speed of the non-dissolved molecules stays constant, therefore it dissolves at the same rate. If you were to somehow be able to raise the temperature of the gas without raising the temperature of the liquid (ideal) then yes it would carb faster, but only because it would increase the pressure of the head space, creating more collisions of the gas molecules with the fluid.

Higher kinetic energy is going to push an unbalanced system towards a balanced system more quickly. Think entropy..........
 

Poindexter

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I am just a noob and I don't mean to sound liek a wet blanket. So far it took me

1) about two weeks to properly carb a corny in the fridge and be ready to serve.

2) About two weeks to properly carb and then chill a keg carbed at room temp

and I am allowing two weeks for:

3) A sealed keg primed with dextrose to carb up and then chill.



Just M2c so far.

Subscribed.
 

Dean Palmer

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The principles of carbonation are not open for debate, and there is no mystery. Do some research and you'll find the same answers from reliable sources.

Carbonation is best done at the refrigeration temp that you are going to keep the beer at. Connecting to the proper pressure of CO2 at this temp, and leaving it alone for a week or so is the best and easiest method. CO2 dissoves more rapidly in cold beer.

Identical results can be had by connecting at pressure and shaking to dissolve the gas more rapidly into the beer.


Carbonation is actually one of the easy and predictable things in our hobby, so don't make it tough :mug:

Dean
www.TheBeerJournals.com
(yeah, there is a page on carbonation) :)
 

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If CO2 could get absorbed into beer faster at a warm temp, don't you think all breweries would do this somewhere in their process to get the beer out the door faster? But they don't. They crash cool the beer (which is expensive) and use a carbonation stone in a bright tank to get the carbonation into the beer as quickly as possible (when it needs to be added, many use the ferment to add carbonation in the beer). No brewery that I am aware of carbonates their beer at room temp.
Just an observation.

Having said that, I usually have two kegs hooked up to gas at 30psi and 70 degrees. They sit there until I move them into the kegerator to cold condition for a few weeks until there is a free tap for them to go to. But I like to let my beer condition for about 6 weeks before it gets consumed.
 

Bearcat Brewmeister

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Even assuming you are correct and it carbonates faster, you still have to chill the beer down and monitor the pressure as it chills. I have gotten beer chilled and carbonated in just over 24 hours with a carbonation stone. I put my keg in the fridge and let it cool for 4 hours unconnected to gas. At that point I start the gas, but at real low pressure, like 3 or 4 psi. After that, I turn it up by 1 psi every 2 hours (just so you can hear some bubbles) and stop when I have reached the proper serving pressure for that style of beer. It may still be a bit green, but from a carbonation standpoint, it is ready the next day every time.
 

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I chill the keg, then set 20 to 25 psi and shake the keg for 3 to 5 minutes (when gas stops flowing, i stop shaking). disconnect the gas and turn the pressure back down to my carb pressure (usually around 12psi). After half an hour of settling, I vent the keg and reconnect gas. When I want to serve, I turn the pressure down a little more and vent the extra because I like a really slow pour since it helps to keep the gas in the beer longer. Just how much faster do you need?
 
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abraxas

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jdoiv said:
If CO2 could get absorbed into beer faster at a warm temp, don't you think all breweries would do this somewhere in their process to get the beer out the door faster? But they don't. They crash cool the beer (which is expensive) and use a carbonation stone in a bright tank to get the carbonation into the beer as quickly as possible (when it needs to be added, many use the ferment to add carbonation in the beer). No brewery that I am aware of carbonates their beer at room temp.
Just an observation.

Good observation.... I was aware of this and that is why I posed this question...

The fastest way is going to involve low T, high P, high surface area but this will require some level of monitoring and risk of overcarbonation (did this once and it sucked). I'm just guessing that between a low T and high T with correlating pressure per desired equilibrium, higher T higher P is going to be quicker without the risk of overcarbonation.


Actually this discussion has led me to find a book exactly like what I have been looking for:
http://books.google.com/books?id=cr...8J1&sig=2iPXfRAfr8ZZ65gFo8b4ulB4Cu0#PPA348,M1
 

RICLARK

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Hijacking this Thread! I set up my Keezer yesterday and Im force carbing...I hit it with 60 PSI and unhooked and Shook Twice then left the kegs at 15 Psi. But when I leave it for a while and open it back up the Pressure Gauge has dropped What am I doing Wrong? I dont think I have any leaks.
 

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If you dial down the regulator, sometimes the pressure that everything equalizes is less than what it reads initially. When I dial down I get it to the pressure I want and then pull a presure relief valve and see what pressure the reg lands at, then dial up accordingly.
 

shafferpilot

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Yep, if you don't vent after turning the regulator down, you won't be set at the pressure that is reading. When you think you have it set right, vent a keg and see where the needle lands. Then adjust as necessary and vent a little again. After the first couple times, you'll get a feel for your reg and it'll get much easier to hit your desired pressure with one or two adjustments.
 

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After I'm done with the fermentation and primary and move into my keg, would anyone recommend that I chill the beer in my refridgerator and then force carbonate the beer by high pressure and shaking. I've heard that you can tell when it's done by listening to see when the bubbles stop, but anyways I plan on serving it the next day.

Will a Brewer's Best American Amber need conditioning after primary?
 

Bobby_M

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I've never made a beer that hasn't benefited from sitting around longer. It gets better and better, but I guess you'll have to decide when it's good enough. Even if I carb it 14 days into it, I know I shouldn't drink it.
 
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