Flying Blind: How much RO water to cut tap with

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GC89

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Hi guys looking for some experience and advice. I am waiting on my label and box from ward to get a water analysis, but until then Im still brewing blind. I have several stout and porter recipes I have maid that come out amazing and am constantly asked to brew them so I can send home growlers and kegs. Ambers, Pales and IPAs on the otherhand.... always seem to be lacking. I can never get the hops to come through quite as much as I would like (low on sulfates Im guessing). And the malt flavor is allways lacking. I would describe it as dry or hollow. Even when I mash high and force some body and residual sugars it comes across as hollow or even a bit sour or tart...its hard to describe. I have managed to pull off a few decent Reds. I know we have reasonably hard water in our well but Im not sure how much RO or distilled water to mix to try correcting this. Me and my wife finally have a day off together on sunday and she wants to help me brew a tangerine wheat for her. I want to give diluting a shot to see if it helps.

The Recipe is

5lb 2-Row
3.2 lb wheat

planning on mashing at 154 to give some body but still a light crisp citrus wheat beer



Cliffs: Darks come out great, ambers-light come out hollow, or even sour-tart. What % of RO water should I use for the above recipe
 
I might be confused here, but why is it that you think cutting with RO will improve your beer? If you think that your sulfates are too low, RO will only make that worse. As far as the hop flavor is concerned, do you use a hop bag? When I stopped using the hop bag I noticed an immediate increase in my hop flavor and aroma. As far as the malts, if this recipe is any indication you may be using too much base malt. Try throwing in some munich malt or marris otter or british crystal. I think adjusting your water is an extremely drastic step and possibly detrimental considering you have no water analysis to work from.

On the other hand, if you have tried everything else and your beer is still unsatisfactory it could be your water. What do I know? I make beer with water right out of the hose.
 
I would only look at blind dilution as "likely" positive if you're brewing something like a Blonde/Kolsch or something like that, but even then you might be dropping below practical Calcium minimums.
 
Getting the hops to really come through has been an issue but the overall lacking of malt presence and the tart or hollow is what I'm most concerned with especially on this wheat which is all of 15 ibus. Im not a fan of light beers and usually have a decent amount of crystal and or Munich in most recpes. I guess I figured wheats are from an area notorious for its soft water so I would be ok on this one. Our water is pretty hard so i can't see calcium being an issue even with diluting it
 
To cut it the amount you likely need to cut it, you'll need some Calcium Chloride or Gypsum (Calcium Sulphate) to get your Calcium levels back. Usually Calcium Chloride would be preferable of those two.

Without using any acid, getting a mash pH that is too low with that grist is pretty unlikely. You could use 100% RO and add CaCl and you still probably wouldn't have a mash pH that's too low.

So I would just go with 'primer water' (from the link above). If your all-tap-water mash pH is too high, then any amount of RO cutting you do will probably help (as long as you add any needed Calcium back).
 
Getting the hops to really come through has been an issue but the overall lacking of malt presence and the tart or hollow is what I'm most concerned with especially on this wheat which is all of 15 ibus. Im not a fan of light beers and usually have a decent amount of crystal and or Munich in most recpes. I guess I figured wheats are from an area notorious for its soft water so I would be ok on this one. Our water is pretty hard so i can't see calcium being an issue even with diluting it

Munich has fairly hard water and they are practically the home of hefeweizen.
 
Point taken, I was under the impression eastern Europe had mostly soft water being home of the pilsner. I'm leaning towards playing it safe, diluting and adding some calcium. It's not as good as going off a water report but should be ok for this recipe
 
Depends, eastern europe is a big place.

It's your beer, I just think that water adjustments are the last thing a brewer should worry about. Good luck.
 
But we don't know what they did to the water when they brewed with it, take those city water profiles with a grain of salt. At a minimum they could have decarbonated it by boiling.
 
So after some reading it appears low mash pH not high causes a sour/tart flavor? Anyone have experience with this? I pulled out a very basic (and old) pH meter my dad had. It measured our water at 6.5 which I was very skeptical of, it did however measure distilled at a pH of 7. Is there any chance my problem could be low pH not high? I would think the issue would be more evident in my dark beers rather than the light ones if it was.

I know this is still shooting in the dark and water pH is only a small part compared to the waters buffering power but just throwing it out there.
 
try throwing a pound of crushed malt into 1.5 quarts of 115 deg. F water, wait 15 minutes and see what the pH comes out to. If it's below 5 than you probably don't have adequate buffering capacity in your water.
 
Thanks for all the advice guys, so I did a mini mash with about a cup of 2-row started at 155 and let it sit for half an hour. I tested the pH using one of the test kits with the drops (not accurate beyond .5 pH but only a few bucks). Based on the test my mash pH was >5 It wasnt down as low as the 4 range but definitely 5 or less. So it appears my first assumption was wrong and low pH is my problem. Im thinking I will try to bump it up slightly by adding a tbs of baking soda to the mash at dough in just to give it a shot.
 
Remember also that maltiness or dryness is also a function of how you mash. Lower mash temps seem to get a higher alcohol yield and higher temps will get lower alcohol and higher maltiness.

RO water has no calcium which is desirable during mashing (particularly if doing protein rests).

I have never used RO water for brewing, but do use half softened household water and half unsoftened when doing lighter brews. For dark beers I'll use all hard water.
 
IMO GC89, don't do that. My guess is that your pH reading was inaccurate. When most 2-row is mashed with pure distilled water (no alkalinity) the mash pH is usually in the 5.6-5.8 neighborhood, sometimes higher. To get a mash pH below 5 with just base malt and tap water almost seems unpossible.

Baking soda has a bunch of sodium in it. A tablespoon sounds like WAY too much (some might say ANY is too much). Pickling lime is better for raising mash pH.

You may want to post in the Science forum and hope that ajdelange or mbrungard (our resident water experts) respond. I'm 99% sure they'll tell you not to use a TBS of baking soda when flying blind.

IMO, just use primer water from the water primer in the stickies of the Science sub-forum.
 
Update:

I finally got my water report back, getting ready to transfer the hefe I did. I decided to leave the water alone not knowing wich way to go. I kind of wish I would have went with my original guess and diluted with RO and added calcium back, my waters bicarb is off the charts

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 325
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.54
Cations / Anions, me/L 6.0 / 5.6
ppm
Sodium, Na 17
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 75
Magnesium, Mg 17
Total Hardness, CaCO3 258
Nitrate, NO3-N 1.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 27
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 268
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 219
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit
 
Well at least you have the report and can proceed from here. Going back and reading the responses, which were all over the place, it's not surprising you weren't sure which way to go.
 
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