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flanders red question.

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pipapat

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Upon reading wild brew it says to rack Flanders of the yeast where as in lamic you want to leave it on the yeast.

Would it hurt anything to leave it on or should i really rack it off.

I used Jamil's suggested method of 1056 and then racking on to Wyeast 3763PC Roeselare Ale Blend. But it was never mentioned about racking the beer off the yeast.

I asked on AHA but never got a response.

Cheers,
Pat
 

Oldsock

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I would rack it, leaving it on the yeast will give it a funkier character more in line with a lambic.

I have been underwhelmed by Jamil's technique (minimal sourness), I've had much better luck pitching the bugs and yeast in primary. If your beer is not souring after 8-12 months, consider adding some fruit. I had great results adding blackberries to my batch of Jamil's Flanders Red.
 

Tonedef131

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With the method you used I would rack, that's a lot of yeast to be on for the length of aging the style requires. I too prefer to pitch the bugs right off the bat, but I like my sours to be very sour.
 

nealf

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I have been underwhelmed by Jamil's technique (minimal sourness), I've had much better luck pitching the bugs and yeast in primary. If your beer is not souring after 8-12 months, consider adding some fruit. I had great results adding blackberries to my batch of Jamil's Flanders Red.
I like this idea; however, I would rather add unfermented wort to the batch so I don't impart any other fruit flavors.

I did this with my lambic and it got quite sour so I have to imagine that would be another option. Does this seem like a valid option for a Flanders as well? I have one that has been in the primary for about 8 months; so, I guess I will taste it soon and see if it needs any adjusting.
 

mysterio

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I added WLP001 and the Roeselare blend at the same time to my batch. Two weeks later I racked off the yeast. 18 months later, it was ready for drinking. Good level of sourness.
 

Oldsock

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I like this idea; however, I would rather add unfermented wort to the batch so I don't impart any other fruit flavors.

I did this with my lambic and it got quite sour so I have to imagine that would be another option. Does this seem like a valid option for a Flanders as well? I have one that has been in the primary for about 8 months; so, I guess I will taste it soon and see if it needs any adjusting.
Certainly would work, I have used DME to add some extra sourness/funk to a sour or two (just wait long enough so the pedio/brett are the dominant microbes). I have also had pretty good results adding lactic acid (~2 oz of 88% in 5 gallons) to add sourness to otherwise lacking sours.
 

flyerwire

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hmm i was thinking of brewing up a flanders with a fermenter that i need to get rid of and i like mine sour. Was going to go the Jamil way, but glad i read this. Is roselare still good to use? Just pitch both the yeast and bugs, then how long until you rack off to age?
 

Tonedef131

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Is roselare still good to use? Just pitch both the yeast and bugs, then how long until you rack off to age?
Roeselare blend from Wyeast has sacc yeast in it, so you can pitch it alone if you are aiming for a higher level of sourness.
 

Bobby_M

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If you're not getting enough sour, it means you're not letting the acetobacter get enough oxygen. That's where the wood dowel in the carboy works well. Another option is to let it ride in an HDPE bucket for a month or two.
 

Tonedef131

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If you're not getting enough sour, it means you're not letting the acetobacter get enough oxygen. That's where the wood dowel in the carboy works well. Another option is to let it ride in an HDPE bucket for a month or two.
That's true for acetic acid, but I find pitching the blend right at the beginning will increase the total lactic acid in the finished product because it give the lacto a chance to work before the alcohol gets too high for it. If you pitch the blend after sacc has taken the beer to 5% abv or so the lacto won't be able to do much and then you are depending solely on the pedio for lactic sourness.

But as for total sourness more O2 will give you more acetic acid, less hops will give you more lactic acid and adding a tart fruit like pie cherries can balance the sourness with malic acid.
 

wetherel

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I've got a 9 sours I have been aging on the lees for 3-15 months. Most of them have little or no saccharomyces, except for two of them. The two that I did primary fermentation with saccharomyces have a rubbery aroma (I think it's autolysis from the saccharomyces yeast bed), that Brett has yet to remove. I'm going to rack these two off, and hope the Brett will eventually clean it up. In the future I'm going rack any sours which use saccharomyces as a sole primary yeast. I don't have any scientific evidence though; maybe the rubbery aroma is from something else.
 

Bobby_M

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That's true for acetic acid, but I find pitching the blend right at the beginning will increase the total lactic acid in the finished product because it give the lacto a chance to work before the alcohol gets too high for it. If you pitch the blend after sacc has taken the beer to 5% abv or so the lacto won't be able to do much and then you are depending solely on the pedio for lactic sourness.

But as for total sourness more O2 will give you more acetic acid, less hops will give you more lactic acid and adding a tart fruit like pie cherries can balance the sourness with malic acid.
Thanks. Direct pitching is something that I plan to try for my next attempt. I actually used Lambic Blend II instead of Roselare simply because it wasn't available at the time. Due to the barrel aging for a year, it was plenty sour but I can't say my pallette knows the difference between lactic and acetic just yet.
 

Tonedef131

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I can't say my pallette knows the difference between lactic and acetic just yet.
It's easiest to equate each once with a food, so when you taste that sourness and it reminds you of something you are familiar with you can recognize it.

Acetic acid: Vinegar
Lactic acid: buttermilk and yogurt
Citric acid: lemons and limes
Malic acid: Pomegranate and tart apples
 
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pipapat

pipapat

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racked it off the yeast today. hated to disturb the buggies. How long does it take for the pellical to form typical?
 

mysterio

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I think it took about a month for mine to develop, pipapat.

Here was mine after a month or so, it turns a lot more white later on.

 
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pipapat

pipapat

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good too know thanks for the response.
I had a little going when i racked it today.
but it was not covered like i see in many pictures.

I plan on doing 2 more batches with my tax return and getting 2 more carboys.
 

Munsoned

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I left mine on the yeast, now going on 6 months. I took a sample a week or so ago and had no autolysis flavors that I could detect. This thread is making me think about racking it though... I just don't want to "infect" another better bottle, and I don't have any more glass carboys to put it in, so I guess I'd have to suck it up one way or another... Choices...
 
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pipapat

pipapat

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I left mine on the yeast, now going on 6 months. I took a sample a week or so ago and had no autolysis flavors that I could detect. This thread is making me think about racking it though... I just don't want to "infect" another better bottle, and I don't have any more glass carboys to put it in, so I guess I'd have to suck it up one way or another... Choices...
glass carboys are not cheap but worth having.

:)
 

AaronBrews

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Hello, I have been considering making an extract+grains Flanders Red and would like comments and suggestions on what I have come up with during my research.

4.0 lbs Munich Extract (LME)
3.3 lbs Briess Pilsen (LME)
0.5 lbs Special B
0.5 lbs caramunich
0.5 lbs aromatic malt
1 tsp. Irish Moss (15 mins)
.075-1oz Hallertau Pellets
Wyeast Roselare Blend

I was going to steep the grains at 155F for 20-30 mins
Add extracts
Boil Time: 2 Hours
Hallertau hops with 60 mins left
Irish Moss with 15 mins left
Pitch yeast per directions

3 weeks in primary
Age 6 months in secondary with oak chips, read that using a plastic fermenter works well.
Add some form of sour dark cherry and age addition 2 months.
At this point I would start to bottle maybe 1-2 gallons at a time looking to age the remaining beer longer.

Comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
 

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