flanders recipe needed

[pipapat]

Ok gang i have brewed variants of Jamils recipes for a flanders red.
Thinking of doing something else as his are not supposed to be very sour.

Any recommendations for a Flanders red or brown?

Old Sock and ryane your imput is always welcome here.

I was thinking traditional mash and long boil.

Cheers

 

[michael.berta]

If you want it to be more sour yeast selection is key. If I remember right. Jamil's Flanders ferments with Cal Ale yeast then he racks to a secondary and adds a pitch of the Wyeast Roselare blend. If you want it to be more sour why not just skip the Cal Ale yeast and just pitch the Roselare....Also, it might take 6 months to a year for the sourness to develop...

 

[ryane]

I am really starting to think that for either style as long as you brew up something with the right color, and keep it pretty malty (esp the brown) it will turn out pretty good, for both beers there is some residual malt character left but for the most part the bugs/yeast dominate the flavor and mouthfeel

For the brown I would try a malt bill that is very malty and caramelly, for the red I would use a touch of special b, I would also suggest using primarily continental crystal type malt, US/English crystal malts just dont seem to offer the same flavors

A red that Ive done in the past that worked out well is

6.5 Vienna
1.0 Aromatic
1.0 Carahell
1.0 Caravienna
1.0 Wheat
0.5 Special B

I would offer up a bruin recipe, but I havent been able to taste a finished version of one Ive made

 

[Oldsock]

By traditional do you mean using raw wheat/corn and pulling off a cereal type step to gelatinize the starches? I've had fine luck with a standard single infusion mash and flaked/malted wheat, but a more complex mash certainly could give the bugs more food.

This is the general structure I like:

OG 1.060

Base Malt (amount as needed to reach OG), equal parts Pils/Munich/Vienna (imported preferred, but domestic 2-row varieties are acceptable)
1 lb Wheat Malt
1 lb Medium Crystal (Crystal 60, or Caramunich)
.5 lbs Dark Crystal (Special B, CaraAroma, or Crystal 120)
Mash @ 157 for 60 min

Agreed on pitching the bugs up front. I don't care for a vinegar character, but I would screw around with trying to get it by letting oxygen into the fermenter. Belnding is the way to go for that component. Also realize that with out blending/back sweetening/pasteurizing you want get the sweetness that most iof the belgian examples have.

 

[pipapat]

having tried new Belgians la folie i really like the sour brown.
I was aiming for something similar.

I was looking at using raw wheat and a turbid mash.
I have 10 gallons of Flanders red going at the moment.
I could always do a third for blending.

Any maltodex?

 

[Gritsak]

Here is the BYO clone recipe for la folie:

(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.062 FG = 1.015 (or lower)
IBU = 20 SRM = 17 ABV = 6.0%
“Never turn your back on (the barrels). They like to change on you and right when you think you know what one will do, it does the exact opposite.”
—Lauren Salazar

Ingredients

9.75 lbs. (4.4 kg) 2-row pale malt
1 lb. 5 oz. (0.60 kg) Munich malt
1 lb. 5 oz. (0.60 kg) crystal malt (60 °L)
10 oz. (0.28 kg) unmalted wheat
5.7 AAU Cantillion Iris hops (60 mins) (or any neutral hop)
(1.9 oz./54 g at 3% alpha acids)
Wyeast 1056 (American Ale), White Labs WLP001 (California Ale),
Fermentis Safale US-05 or Danstar Nottingham yeast
Wyeast 3278 (Lambic blend) or
White Labs WLP655 (Belgian Sour Mix 1) blend
1 cup corn sugar (for priming)

Step by Step

Mash at 154 °F (68 °C). Boil for 60 minutes. Ferment with neutral ale yeast at 75 °F (24 °C), then rack to barrel and add sour blend. Aging time is totally up to the barrel. This is where years of tasting and blending come in handy. If you want to blend, try ~ 20% of a sweeter (younger) barrel, ~30% of a nice mild sour barrel and ~50% of a well established “tour gripper” with nice oak notes (cherries, horse blanket, etc). (Young usually means ~ 1 year, mid range ~2 years and grippers are 3+ years.) But there are no rules here. Do whatever works for you.


I brewed something similar a couple days ago that i fermented with yeast i cultured from Jolly Pumpkin la roja. It's bubbling away quite aggressively now.

 

[pipapat]

By traditional do you mean using raw wheat/corn and pulling off a cereal type step to gelatinize the starches? I've had fine luck with a standard single infusion mash and flaked/malted wheat, but a more complex mash certainly could give the bugs more food.

This is the general structure I like:

OG 1.060

Base Malt (amount as needed to reach OG), equal parts Pils/Munich/Vienna (imported preferred, but domestic 2-row varieties are acceptable)
1 lb Wheat Malt
1 lb Medium Crystal (Crystal 60, or Caramunich)
.5 lbs Dark Crystal (Special B, CaraAroma, or Crystal 120)
Mash @ 157 for 60 min

Agreed on pitching the bugs up front. I don't care for a vinegar character, but I would screw around with trying to get it by letting oxygen into the fermenter. Belnding is the way to go for that component. Also realize that with out blending/back sweetening/pasteurizing you want get the sweetness that most iof the belgian examples have.

old sock, went with yours.
I added some dex for the bugs to eat over the next 12 months.

 

[Oldsock]

I really like the pils/vienna/munich combo for any darkish beer, gives a good balance of malty flavors without being obnoxious. Hope the beer turns out well, our barrel aged batch using that recipe certainly did.

 

[pipapat]

I really like the pils/vienna/munich combo for any darkish beer, gives a good balance of malty flavors without being obnoxious. Hope the beer turns out well, our barrel aged batch using that recipe certainly did.

did you blend or just do 1 batch?

 

[Oldsock]

did you blend or just do 1 batch?

It was something like 10 gallons of 6 month old FR (half with Roeselare half with Red Poppy dregs), 45 gallons of fermented out base beer, and 5 gallons of freshly brewed wort. The combined gravity was pretty close to 1.030.

Someday I'll have a system that I can fill a barrel with...

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/10/plan-wine-barrel-flanders-red.html

 

[pipapat]

It was something like 10 gallons of 6 month old FR (half with Roeselare half with Red Poppy dregs), 45 gallons of fermented out base beer, and 5 gallons of freshly brewed wort. The combined gravity was pretty close to 1.030.

Someday I'll have a system that I can fill a barrel with...

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/10/plan-wine-barrel-flanders-red.html

im working in 5 gallon batches so i feel your pain.
The brew club here isnt into sours all that much so its all me.
I plan on upgrading too a 20 gallon mash tun and 30 gallon hlt.
So that will help since i have a 15 gallon kettle and 2 10s.

I may be firing a flanders red this weekend to blend with my 9 month old batches.

 

[OdinsBrew]

im working in 5 gallon batches so i feel your pain.
The brew club here isnt into sours all that much so its all me.
I plan on upgrading too a 20 gallon mash tun and 30 gallon hlt.
So that will help since i have a 15 gallon kettle and 2 10s.

I may be firing a flanders red this weekend to blend with my 9 month old batches.

Hoping to resurrect an old thread with my questions about flanders red sours.
Did you blend your batches? Can you give me some details on what you did and how it turned out? Did you blend a "brand new", just fermented, not soured batch, with a 9 month old soured? What %s?

Anybody have thoughts on blending in general? I'm looking forward to doing taste tests but it's too early. I have a 6 month old and 2 month old. Wondering if I should start souring another now, or wait and blend with a "non-sour" batch...?

Skol!

 

[pipapat]

I have not blenned yet at this point.
Old sock and give you much more info than i can.
I paln on blending to taste in 6 months after i brew a 2 more flanders.

Because i dont have the ablity to pasturize beer like many comercial expamples i will be waiting for the gravity to drop so i dont have flanders bombs in my basment.

 

[OdinsBrew]

Right on. Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'll start up a new thread if there isn't one about blending and bottling.

Skol!

 

[doobliebop]

If you have the most recent Zymurgy magazine, the NHC homebrewer of the year (best of show for the competition) was a guy in Ft. Colins, CO. He did a Flanders Red and his recipe is printed in the magazine.

 

[pipapat]

If you have the most recent Zymurgy magazine, the NHC homebrewer of the year (best of show for the competition) was a guy in Ft. Colins, CO. He did a Flanders Red and his recipe is printed in the magazine.

He also had a new Belgium Barrel.
I must say im more than a bit jealous.

Im going to be picking up 1 more 15 gallon barrel here really soon.

 

[cfonnes]

pipapat - where are you getting barrels?

 

[doobliebop]

I got a question about the recipe I referenced before (Remi Bonnart, 2010 NHC Homebrewer of the Year, Best of Show, Gold Medal Sour Ale Recipe). Here it is:

5.8 Gallon Batch
4lb german pils
4lb vienna
2lb dark munich
8oz aromatic
8oz caramel munich
8oz special b
8oz wheat
1oz EKG plug hops 5% AA 60 min
90 min boil
Pacman ale yeast to ferment first
Roselare yeast in secondary
1tsp yeast nutrient
2.5vol forced CO2

Of note here is that he fermented in a LaFolie barrel. Then they pitched the sour dregs of just about every sour beer they could get their hands on.


I find this very similar to Jamil's recipe in Classic Styles. Something to note: if you're fermenting in a glass carboy you may want to skip the primary fermentation and just pitch Roselare. Remi was fortunate enough to get his hands on a used La Folie barrel from New Belgium, and to reproduce this at home in a glass fermenter you will be hard up to get it as sour as barrel-fermented. I currently have this in secondary (only beer I've secondaried in a long time), and I'm following Raj's method (white oak dowel). Furthermore, I'm planning on culturing or pitching a lot of dregs from sours. See the Mad Fermentationist for a list of sour beers with viable dregs.

For comparison, Jamil's from BCS:

7 gal batch
5.25lbs continental pils
5.25lbs vienna
0.5lbs wheat
1lbs munich
0.5lbs aromatic
0.5lbs caramunich
0.5lbs special b
60 min boil
Roselare yeast, alternatively ferment first with WLP001 for a less sour beer
EKGs 0.8oz 5%AA 60mins
1oz oak (sanitized) cubes
carb'd to 2.5 volumes
He mentions Raj's oak dowel method.
No mention of secondary. I'm not surprised from Jamil...


On a side note, I went really far out of my way to get white oak dowels, and have a decent amount of extras right now. PM me if you're local to Denver and want one.

 

[Oldsock]

Remi was fortunate enough to get his hands on a used La Folie barrel from New Belgium, and to reproduce this at home in a glass fermenter you will be hard up to get it as sour as barrel-fermented.

It sounded to me like he just added the dregs from a group brew that was aged in a La Folie barrel. All the Zymurgy article says is "transfer to glass secondary...with a silicone airlock."

I completely agreed- with you though, I've had the best luck adding my bugs up from along with the primary yeast.

 

[doobliebop]

It sounded to me like he just added the dregs from a group brew that was aged in a La Folie barrel. All the Zymurgy article says is "transfer to glass secondary...with a silicone airlock."

I completely agreed- with you though, I've had the best luck adding my bugs up from along with the primary yeast.

I didn't go back and read the article when I posted the recipe, but I thought I had read that he pitched other dregs. Just went back and read it...

"During the course of fermentation, dregs of several sour beers were added to fermentation including Gueuze Giradin and a homebrewed Sour Blond Ale (~12 separate batches that were brewed by different homebrewers and blended) that was aged in an oak barrel that previously contained New Belgium La Folie."

 

[Oldsock]

I didn't go back and read the article when I posted the recipe, but I thought I had read that he pitched other dregs. Just went back and read it...

"During the course of fermentation, dregs of several sour beers were added to fermentation including Gueuze Giradin and a homebrewed Sour Blond Ale (~12 separate batches that were brewed by different homebrewers and blended) that was aged in an oak barrel that previously contained New Belgium La Folie."

Sorry my post wasn't clear, by "just" I was referring to the influence of the La Folie barrel on the winning beer. I added La Folie dregs to a sour Butternut squash brown ale that I brewed and it is probably the most sour beer I have brewed (sadly the new Lips of Faith bombers are pasteurized).

 

[smellysell]

I didn't go back and read the article when I posted the recipe, but I thought I had read that he pitched other dregs. Just went back and read it...

"During the course of fermentation, dregs of several sour beers were added to fermentation including Gueuze Giradin and a homebrewed Sour Blond Ale (~12 separate batches that were brewed by different homebrewers and blended) that was aged in an oak barrel that previously contained New Belgium La Folie."

I think I've had that beer, and it was fantastic! /threadjack

 

[pipapat]

I think I've had that beer, and it was fantastic! /threadjack

so jealous.