Fixing or welding a Stainless Keggle hole?

[Barnesie]

So I've gotten myself into a pinch and wound up getting scammed on a leaking keggle from a HBT member. Dude sold me a keggle with "little to no cosmetic damage" but ended up sending me a keg with a hole drilled in the bottom that has been badly patched. I paid $95 bucks ($65 + $30 shipping) and now the seller is claiming it was "damaged in shipping" or that I did something to make it leak. (Truth is that I did do something to make it leak...I filled it with water to see how bad of a job he did patching the hole)

In short, I'm out $95 and this guy is perfectly happy keeping my money. So much for homebrewers helping homebrewers.

I'm having trouble finding anyone that welds stainless in my area, so before I go dragging this thing around the countryside I wanted to get some advice from people with experience with stainless.

Here's two overhead shots from the inside of the keggle (these thumbnails should open a larger image):



Here's a couple of shots of the underside repair in detail:



The repair seems to be leaking in several places, but it's difficult to get a shot of the actual cracks in the weld. This picture shows two that can be clearly seen by the naked eye:

So for those of you that have more experience with these, what would you do? Assuming I can find someone skilled with stainless, how easy is this to fix and assuming I find someone that's "lesser skilled"...how much trouble am I getting myself into here?

Dreading how much more money I might need to sink into this thing and wondering if I should just sell it for scrap. Help!

 

[stamandster]

This wouldn't be the same member from the other post that sold someone a bumb keg? Sounds familiar...

 

[Barnesie]

This wouldn't be the same member from the other post that sold someone a bumb keg? Sounds familiar...

Not sure, I didn't see another post about a bum keg yet. I'll go hunting for it in the mean time.

 

[davis119]

Its hard to see the pic on my phone. But id drill it out and get a 1/2"npt brass plug and put that in and ring a nut for the inside or use a coupling. U may have to use some type of rtv silicone instead of an oring due to heat.

 

[nate456789]

You could take your grinder or sander and dress it up on the inside. Then silver solder over it.
Check out the soldering stainless sticky.
Silver solder will seal in the nasty. Cheap and quick fix.
Apply the heat from the bottom and the solder should flow over it. Dress it with a sanding disk or by hand.

 

[Barnesie]

You could take your grinder or sander and dress it up on the inside. Then silver solder over it.
Check out the soldering stainless sticky.
Silver solder will seal in the nasty. Cheap and quick fix.
Apply the heat from the bottom and the solder should flow over it. Dress it with a sanding disk or by hand.

How would silver solder work out on the bottom of a kettle though? I don't know its melting temperature, but it's going to spend it's life over a direct flame which would make me nervous.

 

[nate456789]

How would silver solder work out on the bottom of a kettle though? I don't know its melting temperature, but it's going to spend it's life over a direct flame which would make me nervous.

Read this this thread. It's long but it has everything you need to do it right.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/soldering-stainless-steel-155782/

Several people do it here with their fittings. As long as you don't dry fire the the keggle you will not reach the melting point of the silver solder.
Make sure you use the liquid flux.

 

[stamandster]

Are you going electric?? If so then you should be fine!

 

[jfrizzell]

HBT username of the scammer? Maybe the rest of us should avoid the loser as well.

 

[Barnesie]

HBT username of the scammer? Maybe the rest of us should avoid the loser as well.

I'm kinda conflicted on that idea. I've been lurking on HBT for years actively reading but not posting. I just don't know if appropriate to blast a fellow member.

I think this guy completely and knowingly scammed me, but I've seen other people buy from him in the past and I don't know their experiences with him.

I rated him poorly on iTrader and I'd be perfectly comfortable telling people via PM who I wouldn't buy a keggle from.

 

[nate456789]

I'm kinda conflicted on that idea. I've been lurking on HBT for years actively reading but not posting. I just don't know if appropriate to blast a fellow member.

I think this guy completely and knowingly scammed me, but I've seen other people buy from him in the past and I don't know their experiences with him.

I rated him poorly on iTrader and I'd be perfectly comfortable telling people via PM who I wouldn't buy a keggle from.

That is a great way to approach it.
I don't think your purchase is a loss. Looks like a fairly easy fix to me.
It is sad that someone played you and dumped their screw up on you. But it is totally fixable if that is the only damage you have.
Are the seams ok? hard to tell from your picture.
If you didn't want to solder it It could be easily TIG welded with some back gassing. If you go to a local welding shop and be humble and offer up some beer I bet they would fix it for next to nothing.

 

[Nohup]

Some decommissioned kegs have holes drilled through them. My first keggle keg had 2 holes that look similar to yours.
I was able to find a welder to fix them, But I ended up making that keggle into an insulated mash tun anyway.

You could do the same, and not have to worry about direct firing this one. Just insulate it with some reflectix, drill a hole for a drain/valve, put in a false-bottom or a braid, and mash in it. Since the MT will never get over 170F or so, you could patch the hole with pretty much anything from silicon to solder.

Once that's done, you can start looking for a good undrilled keggle keg.

Sorry to hear about the scam though.
From the day I bought mine, I assume any keg that is sold as "decommissioned" has been drilled, and purchase accordingly.

 

[bruin_ale]

Several people do it here with their fittings. As long as you don't dry fire the the keggle you will not reach the melting point of the silver solder.
Make sure you use the liquid flux.

I've read that thread, but I wouldn't use solder on the bottom of a keg that's going to be directly heated. The bottom of a direct fired keg (dry fired or not) is definitely above the melting point of the solder.

 

[the_bird]

I've read that thread, but I wouldn't use solder on the bottom of a keg that's going to be directly heated. The bottom of a direct fired keg (dry fired or not) is definitely above the melting point of the solder.

I agree. I've accidentally burned myself on the outside of a keg that I'm boiling wort in; holy ****, that's hot! When I'm chilling, I'll sometimes spray some of the water coming out of the chiller onto the bottom half of the keg, and it instantly vaporizes into steam, for a good while. I'm not sure exactly HOW hot the keg gets when being direct-fired, but it's hot enough where I wouldn't trust silver solder directly in the line of fire.

 

[Homercidal]

There is no way a silver soldered patch is going to hold up directly over the flame. Soldering is great for fittings away from the direct heat, not in it.

Unfortunately, the best way I can think of is to take it to a real welder and having him patch and grind the area smooth on the inside. I'm no a real welder, but I think even I could do it with a TIG welder and a little practice. It's a skill that requires experience. Sheet metal can sometimes be tough to do, but every welder in my shop could fix that easy.

As far as the seller, if you didn't weld it, then he must have. This is not cosmetic damage, or damage in shipping, it's fraud. This goes far beyond common *****ery. He deserves to be outed IMO. Best ask TX his opinion since he sets the rules for courtesy here.

If the Seller reads this then I expect he will want to give his side of the story. Otherwise the evidence is pretty clear.

 

[the_bird]

As far as the seller, if you didn't weld it, then he must have. This is not cosmetic damage, or damage in shipping, it's fraud. This goes far beyond common *****ery. He deserves to be outed IMO. Best ask TX his opinion since he sets the rules for courtesy here.

If the Seller reads this then I expect he will want to give his side of the story. Otherwise the evidence is pretty clear.

Pretty sure that would be a ban-able offense, if the seller doesn't make you whole.

 

[Bobby_M]

First i support the idea of calling out any scammers. If there is another side of the story, they can counterpoint in public.

There is no reason why solder wouldnt hold up. There is no way the bottom is going to reach 400f. The keg SKIRT will, but not the flat.

 

[zazbnf]

There is no reason why solder wouldnt hold up. There is no way the bottom is going to reach 400f. The keg SKIRT will, but not the flat.

I agree the solder would be fine, you can actually boil water in a paper cup (try it sometime) as long as you do not heat the cup with no water in it. The water in the keg will keep the covered surface below the melting temp of the solder.

 

[bad67z]

I agree the solder would be fine, you can actually boil water in a paper cup (try it sometime) as long as you do not heat the cup with no water in it. The water in the keg will keep the covered surface below the melting temp of the solder.

You beat me to it, I remember this demonstration from boy scouts. I would solder it and move on.

 

[Barnesie]

Thanks to everyone who's provided advice thus far. For those that took the time to look at the pictures, am I way off base in thinking this wasn't done well? I'm a very reasonable person, but dealing with this guy has made me question my sanity. It seems to me a very bad job welding job, but not having had a lot of experience in repairing stainless I don't know if this is acceptable one way or another. I'd always like to give someone the benefit of doubt, but I have trouble believing that this weld "spontaneously" developed cracks in transit that rendered it useless. Maybe I'm wrong, so someone please speak up if you want to play devils advocate.

Does this repair pass an eye test? The guy claims up and down that this thing was tested for leaks after the repair and that anything that happened after it left his hands is not his responsibility. To my eye, I can't understand how perform a weld like that and assume it's fine. I just want someone to tell me straight up if this is even close to a reasonable repair.

The guy is offering $15 refund or I ship it back at my cost and he'll give me a $65 refund. That leaves me at either paying $80 for a keggle with a hole in it or $60 in shipping fees for nothing at all.

I submit to your judgement...

 

[Rbeckett]

If you were closer I would tig it up nicely for you and you could be done. Tig used to be really cheap to do, but gas prices and hazmat have made it a bit more expensive to do, but it is really a give me 20 bucks and I will make it good as new kind of repair. There is a fellow nearby you who does some very nice work that you may want to contact. If you are interested PM me and I will give you some contact info for him. Repairing that mess will be pretty easy, and once repaired properly it will be a permanent no leak repair that remains stainless and corrosion resistant just like stainless should be. Sorry you got jammed, but being above the name calling and finger pointing makes you a better man than the rogue who tried to rip you off. Hope this helps resolve you situation.
Wheelchair Bob

 

[davis119]

Dude for that price u can pay some to fix it.... take the $15

 

[wilserbrewer]

15 bucks is a fair settlement IMO, buy some silver solder and flux w/ the money and start brewing. Just for a sanity check, it is ludicrous the "shipping damage" caused the keg to leak at a previously repair...what BS!

 

[rtrevino]

I'll try and put all accusations in light. I am the "scammer" he is referencing. Some of you may know me and having have purchased from me, so please speak up and let us all know how your keggle arrived. When the top of this keg was cut I found a repair patch, probably from the brewery. The inside weld was very sloppy so I smoothed it out, punched the weldless holes, plugged it all up and filled the keg. I found no evidence of a leak at that time and boxed it up for shipment. Almost 1 month after receiving the keggle I get a pm from this buyer who claimed 2 things; first was that the keggle had a leak from the patch and second that he was not pleased wih the appearance of the keg and that he ated a refund.

He claims it was not damaged in transit so I'm not sure what happened between him opening the box and pm'ing me almost one month later. I offered a full refund becaus I know I can easily turn around a resell the keg after fixing the issue it now has. However he has declined to at least cover some of the shipping expenses. To make things really easy I offered a partial refund to get the "leak" welded but he even declined that offer and has now instead gone and made false accusations about the transaction.

Im a long time homebrewer and I support all homebrewers. My profit margin is very low, labor costs mostly. I could easily sell keggles for much more locally and on eBay but i have choosen not to. This forum has a lot of good dedicated brewers and, I want to know these are going to be going to a good group of people.

Both offers still stand. Partial refund or full refund if the keggle is returned.

 

[stamandster]

Running a business means accounting for losses, real or perceived. And public perception is something you can't buy; the upset people tell ten oithers notion. It does seem that you're trying to help and do the right thing but, honestly, I don't think that $15 is enough to fix it. I do think he should take it to welder and send you the bill.

I know how hard it is to form/bend/cut stainless (esp. keg gauge). And a good weld is as strong as the original material. So a poor original weld that possibly cracked in transit, tbh, is still your responsibility. You inspected the keg before it went out and deemed it to be in good working condition.

Let's say a company sends me a TV, they tested that it turned on and works as described. This TV comes in, i plug it in and the speakers don't work. Come to find out there are wires hanging from inside for where the speakers are. I would say it's the sellers responsibility (shipping/replacement or repairs) completely. That's the way it works unfortunately. That's the reason why I don't sell anything to anyone not in my area code.

I hope you take this as constructive criticism, not as a jab. I still think you're an all right guy rtrevino

 

[davis119]

Imo. Props to OP not to come out and fry this guy in a thread and props to seller to come out and speak his piece......

OP I say take the $15 and find some one to fix it. Or do what I said originally and drill it out and fix with a brass plug for a couple dollars.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I do think he should take it to welder and send you the bill.

agreed this is a square deal...the only bust involved with a return is shipping for BOTH parties, and that was a known fact....partial refund seems reasonable.

 

[jmzcustomz]

Man I'm not a welder or fabricator by trade but do have a bit of experience w/ metal. To me it looks like this thing was tacked then a light bead welded around. You can clearly see the two hot spots where it was probably tacke to hold the patch in place. Trying to avoid heating and warping the steel a light bead could have been applied. Thus creating a porous weld. When ground smooth it could leak. Which leads me to another. The welds where ground hot, that is why it is still blue and dark. My experience with my keggle is that when you weld w/ stainless and carefully grind it with a flap disc (read grind with a light touch) you will end up with a hint silver finish, just like the rest of the keg.
Either way man I hope you can get it fixed locally cheap. If I knew a minitrucker near you I could almost guarantee that he would fix it for a beer or two. I would if you were closer.

 

[Bobby_M]

You can get a Harris silver solder kit for less than $10 at any welding shop. Use a STAINLESS wirebrush to clean the area well, position the keg so the repair is the low spot, make a little spiral disc of solder and lay it over the spot, a squirt of flux and heat it from underneath until the solder makes a pool. No propane torch? Put it on your burner.

 

[Barnesie]

I'll try and put all accusations in light. I am the "scammer" he is referencing. Some of you may know me and having have purchased from me, so please speak up and let us all know how your keggle arrived. When the top of this keg was cut I found a repair patch, probably from the brewery. The inside weld was very sloppy so I smoothed it out, punched the weldless holes, plugged it all up and filled the keg. I found no evidence of a leak at that time and boxed it up for shipment. Almost 1 month after receiving the keggle I get a pm from this buyer who claimed 2 things; first was that the keggle had a leak from the patch and second that he was not pleased wih the appearance of the keg and that he ated a refund.

He claims it was not damaged in transit so I'm not sure what happened between him opening the box and pm'ing me almost one month later. I offered a full refund becaus I know I can easily turn around a resell the keg after fixing the issue it now has. However he has declined to at least cover some of the shipping expenses. To make things really easy I offered a partial refund to get the "leak" welded but he even declined that offer and has now instead gone and made false accusations about the transaction.

Im a long time homebrewer and I support all homebrewers. My profit margin is very low, labor costs mostly. I could easily sell keggles for much more locally and on eBay but i have choosen not to. This forum has a lot of good dedicated brewers and, I want to know these are going to be going to a good group of people.

Both offers still stand. Partial refund or full refund if the keggle is returned.

There are several reasons why I didn't want to name the seller, I didn't think it was appropriate given the rules of the classifieds, and I also didn't think it would do anything to resolve what is essentially a private dispute. I give the seller kudos for self-identifying, but the purpose of this thread was to get advice on moving forward with the piece of junk I've been sold and not to belabor a stalemate with him.

To that end, I've gotten some good advice here and a couple of good tips via PM that might result in a working HLT someday. Those of you who have offered your advice, I thank you greatly.

Regarding "false accusations", I'm not sure what those might be. Obviously we have a clear difference of opinion about this transaction but I don't think any of the facts here can be disputed, only characterized in one light or another. I feel like I was cheated on this deal and that this guy is dishonest, but that is my opinion.

I also must take exception to the sellers description of the transaction, which I've disputed privately ad nauseum. I bought two kegs, one was perfect and the other arrived with an unexpected repair in the bottom. I noted the repair but assumed in good faith that it would hold water and thus would make a perfectly fine HLT. It took another two and a half weeks before I could order and receive my weldless fittings, put together a brew session and fill my new HLT over a fire. My flame went out and I noticed a pool of water in my Jet burner, being a bit dense I dumped out the burner and re-lit the flame. A few minutes later I found the burner filled with water again and my brewing partner pointed out the water running down from the patch.

I contacted the seller the next morning not with demands for restitution, but as a polite expression of disappointment that the patch was leaking since I was genuinely bummed. I assumed incorrectly that the seller would be motivated to address the problem or at least guide me towards a solution, but from his responses, it was clear that he did not intend to take any responsibility for the condition of the item.

I have reiterated numerous times via PM that I don't care about the appearance of the keg, only the function and that it is not functional. I will also point out that I've never once demanded a refund in any of our communications, I've only expressed disappointment in the way he has chosen to do business.

I have also asked many times why he never described the keg as having any damage whatsoever in the listing or in the paypal invoice, but he continues to ignore that question entirely.

It was quite obvious in our PM exchange that he had no desire to take any responsibility for the bad keggle, so I posted my feedback on iTrader and moved on with my life trying to figure out how to salvage this $95 leaking keggle.

Again, I'll point out that the purpose of this thread was to figure out how to salvage a bad keggle, not to debate a private transaction. So I'll just state specifically that I've moved on from this bad deal and I'm not demanding or expecting any restitution. His brewing karma is his business and I'm not the kind of person that will browbeat someone into doing what is right.

My opinion is that I was ripped off by a dishonest person. That is my opinion and is open for debate.

The FACT is that the seller mis-represented the item and has sold a non-functional keggle. Those facts are not open for debate.

Like I've said to him privately, if that's how he chooses to do business then that's on him.

Based on my experience, I wouldn't do business with rtrevino again and I wouldn't recommend him to anyone else in the community.

PS - Big thanks to Bobby_M for the weldless fittings. My items arrived in great condition and didn't have any unexpected holes in them! That's how you do business!

 

[Rbeckett]

I definately thought that you were on the high road when you didn't point out the fellow. That usually just leads to a public pissing match that resolves nothing. I talked to Sundown and he said "hell teah" he could fix it nicely with minimum fuss and muss. Sometimes being above the mess is tough to do, but you have done it well in my numble opinion. Good luck.
Wheelchair Bob

 

[Homercidal]

Too bad you didn't live closer. I'd fix it for free for you and I know several guys in my shop that would do it for a couple of bucks. Stainless is just not hard to TIG weld.

 

[Barnesie]

again, thanks to all who offered advice and suggestions. Wheelchair Bob gave me a contact and I've also received a recommendation for a local shop that I'm going to check out when I get a free second in my life.

My preference is the full-on welded fix. If I ever need to pass this thing on to someone else, I want to be sure that the keggle is built to last. I wouldn't want to burden someone else with a half-cheeked fix I might be able to do myself (not that the fixes suggested are half-cheeked...just that my implementation may be)