First Water Profile for American IPA - Thoughts?

[rwing7486]

Hey Guys I am brewing an IPA using my first water profile adjustment and wanted some feedback. I plan to use 100% RO water for my base and add additions to my water. My estimated room pH is at 5.5, but just wanted to confirm my levels of additions are OK - would you change anything or does this look OK? Only thing I notice is that my anion level is a little lower than suggested. Thanks in advance for your feedback!

 

[mabrungard]

That looks OK. If you aren't sure that you enjoy high sulfate level, you might back off the gypsum addition a bit. I like 300 ppm sulfate and 100 ppm is far too little. Make your choice!

The pH target is a bit higher than I prefer. I suggest 5.4 is a safer target. Reduce the Lime addition. By the way, don't add lime and acid to the mash. Add one or the other, not both.

 

[rwing7486]

That looks OK. If you aren't sure that you enjoy high sulfate level, you might back off the gypsum addition a bit. I like 300 ppm sulfate and 100 ppm is far too little. Make your choice!

The pH target is a bit higher than I prefer. I suggest 5.4 is a safer target. Reduce the Lime addition. By the way, don't add lime and acid to the mash. Add one or the other, not both.

Ya I enjoy a nice bitter IPA and was thinking of raising it more maybe around 250 and see how it tastes then adjust from there for the next run. What is the main reason for not wanting to add both latic acid and lime to the mash? With my grain build I needed to add the acid to reduce my pH down to 5.5 - without it my estimated room temp mash is at 5.8

 

[Yooper]

Ya I enjoy a nice bitter IPA and was thinking of raising it more maybe around 250 and see how it tastes then adjust from there for the next run. What is the main reason for not wanting to add both latic acid and lime to the mash? With my grain build I needed to add the acid to reduce my pH down to 5.5 - without it my estimated room temp mash is at 5.8

Adding acid, and then adding alkali counteract each other. Take out the lime, and you'll see.

 

[mchrispen]

I think I see the confusion. It appears you are trying to also match the calcium and bicarbonate levels precisely as well. I generally focus on Sulfate and Chloride, and perhaps then on Magnesium and Sodium (using gypsum, epsom, canning salt and calcium chloride). Procedurally, once I have the primary flavor ions set to my preference, I look at the estimated mash pH and then look as needed at acid or alkaline additions (baking soda or lime) to achieve the desired mash pH.

With so much additional hardness added for this profile - and depending on your grain bill, it is more likely you will need a very small amount of baking soda or pickling lime and not acid to achieve a mash pH of 5.4 - RO has little alkalinity by its nature . As Martin and Yooper have stated - there is no point to adding something that will be counteracted. A 50 ppm calcium level is more than adequate for a typical IPA or APA.

 

[rwing7486]

Ah I see now - I was fighting myself when adjusting the lime and acid. I think I have a much better profile now using no latic acid. I think I am going to go with the profile below. the estimated pH at room temp is still at 5.5, but I think this value will be OK.

 

[mchrispen]

That makes more sense to me - I would still reduce the alkaline addition to hit 5.4. Nothing terrible about 5.5, I just prefer to be more in the middle range should something go wrong. Brew and see how it goes!

 

[rwing7486]

That makes more sense to me - I would still reduce the alkaline addition to hit 5.4. Nothing terrible about 5.5, I just prefer to be more in the middle range should something go wrong. Brew and see how it goes!

Ya I am going to give it a shot and brew as is. Thanks for the feedback and input!

 

[Yooper]

Ya I am going to give it a shot and brew as is. Thanks for the feedback and input!

I would take out the baking soda, for the same reason I'd take out the lime. Take them both out.

Baking soda adds alkalinity. The mash does not need alkalinity- it needs acid. Take it out, and then add just enough acid to hit your mash pH goal.

 

[rwing7486]

I would take out the baking soda, for the same reason I'd take out the lime. Take them both out.

Baking soda adds alkalinity. The mash does not need alkalinity- it needs acid. Take it out, and then add just enough acid to hit your mash pH goal.

Even when I take both out I am still left with a mash pH of 5.5 so it didnt help with my acidity. It did increase my residual alkalinity but reduced my hardness drastically.....I am going to keep it with the soda and lime

 

[Yooper]

Even when I take both out I am still left with a mash pH of 5.5 so it didnt help with my acidity. It did increase my residual alkalinity but reduced my hardness drastically.....I am going to keep it with the soda and lime

I wouldn't, but if you insist then I guess you will do it. It is counter productive and unnecessary.

It should have reduced your RA when you took it out, and it would be a good thing to do. However, it is your beer.

A mash pH of 5.3-5.4 would be ideal for an IPA, but 5.5 is acceptable.

 

[rwing7486]

I wouldn't, but if you insist then I guess you will do it. It is counter productive and unnecessary.

It should have reduced your RA when you took it out, and it would be a good thing to do. However, it is your beer.

A mash pH of 5.3-5.4 would be ideal for an IPA, but 5.5 is acceptable.

Last adjustment - I removed the baking soda to remove some hydrogen which gave me a mash pH of 5.4. I can remove the pickling lime too which gets me to 5.3. So my question is how important is the hardness/alkalinity (RA looks OK)? keeping the pickling lime at where it is helps me maintain a hardness close to what is recommended.

 

[Yooper]

I can't see why the mash projection would need any alkalinity at all, so maybe that part is cut off.

I'd take out the lime, definitely. The issue is not going to be that the mash pH is too low, not with that grainbill. I'm not sure if there is acid malt or other acid in there, but you definitely don't need alkalinity.

 

[rwing7486]

I can't see why the mash projection would need any alkalinity at all, so maybe that part is cut off.

I'd take out the lime, definitely. The issue is not going to be that the mash pH is too low, not with that grainbill. I'm not sure if there is acid malt or other acid in there, but you definitely don't need alkalinity.

If you look to the right of the Ions you will see Hardness, Alkalinity and RA. For this profile it recommends a Hardness of 425, Alkalinity of 91 and and RA of -20. With the 0.5g of Lime my numbers look pretty good with hardness at 400, alkalinity 49 and RA-50. If I take out the lime these numbers drop to 365,13 and -76. So my question is how important is it to be close to the hardness and Alkalinity numbers as suggested for the pale ale profile?

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

If you look to the right of the Ions you will see Hardness, Alkalinity and RA. For this profile it recommends a Hardness of 425, Alkalinity of 91 and and RA of -20. With the 0.5g of Lime my numbers look pretty good with hardness at 400, alkalinity 49 and RA-50. If I take out the lime these numbers drop to 365,13 and -76. So my question is how important is it to be close to the hardness and Alkalinity numbers as suggested for the pale ale profile?

I believe the short answer to your question about the importance of hardness, alkalinity, and RA is "not very".

It is my understanding that pH is #1 followed by flavor related salts (that provide calcium and/or sulfates). If one starts trying to match hardness, alkalinity, and RA - you end up chasing your tail. You boost the alkalinity and pH only to knock them back down with acid.

When I treat water (I have pretty crummy SoCal water), I start with distilled and never bother looking at those three parameters. I focus on the other ions and then make sure I nail the pH with acidulated malt. Hardness, alkalinity, and RA are ignored.

Doing both is like giving yourself a headache just so you can take aspirin. It's not worth it. If you need Na or Ca, there are other salts you can use other than baking soda or lime - you'll end up where you want to be with those ions without the carbonate headache that needs to be cured.

That's how I see it!

 

[mabrungard]

Only add calcium to the degree necessary to get the sulfate or chloride into the water. There is no need to target the relatively high calcium level that may be reported for the various pale ale profiles out there (including Bru'n Water). Add magnesium at a modest level because it is a great way to add sulfate without adding it via gypsum. RA should not be considered a targeted value. It is only a suggestion or a starting point. The RA will vary as necessary for you to produce an acceptable mash pH. That pH is the target, not RA.

 

[Yooper]

Only add calcium to the degree necessary to get the sulfate or chloride into the water. There is no need to target the relatively high calcium level that may be reported for the various pale ale profiles out there (including Bru'n Water). Add magnesium at a modest level because it is a great way to add sulfate without adding it via gypsum. RA should not be considered a targeted value. It is only a suggestion or a starting point. The RA will vary as necessary for you to produce an acceptable mash pH. That pH is the target, not RA.

Martin, since this question seems to come up all the time, are you considering changing the calcium in the profiles in bru'n water? Or adding an asterisk to the calcium level in the spreadsheet for the desired amount?

 

[mabrungard]

For ales, the calcium levels in those color-based water profiles in Bru'n Water should be fine. They should not be excessive and they do provide enough calcium to aid in flocculation and clearing of ales.

In the case of lagers, less calcium is OK and brewers can alter those profiles down as desired to meet their flavor goals. The need for low mineralization becomes more apparent in lagers that are more neutral or malt focused. The water flavor needs to be more 'transparent' for those beers.