First Water Adjustment - Bru'n Water

[doublehaul]

I have never adjusted my water before so I was playing around with Bru'n water. I've attached Bru'n water after I entered my report, and then with dilluting with 50% Distilled water and adding .5grams Calcium Carbonate. Does that adjustment sound like a good idea?

 

[Yooper]

No, to the calcium carbonate. You won't need to add it, and even if you do need alkalinity, it doesn't dissolve without extraneous measures.

Take a look at the projected pH on the next sheet- you want to target a pH of 5.3-5.5 and that's important.

I can't really see the numbers in that screen shot (old eyes) so I'll try to look more closely at that.

 

[doublehaul]

I'll try to post the text this afternoon so it's easier to read. My pales always taste a little watered to me is what got me on this path - I've read about adding gypsum for IPAs, but that throws one of the columns that is green now (can't remember which) on this sheet way out of range.

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

It's ok if they aren't all green. Try to match your numbers to the profile line-- you have selected pale ale-- right now you need a healthy dose of calcium sulfate to get anywhere in the ballpark.

That likely will Change you PH all around too, though can't tell on your sheets what that currently is.


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[judsonp]

You don't need to match the alkalinity. Mixing with distilled reduces the alkalinity, which is generally the direction you want to go. You don't need to add back any calcium carbonate.

If you add gypsum, you will quickly knock the "sulfate" box out of the green zone. Read the text for that box and the text about ions on the other pages of the spreadsheet. That will explain why the target sulfate for pale ales is actually outside of its green zone. (Although, if you've been making pale ale with 16 ppm sulfate, jumping to 300 might be a bit much. I think the "yellow bitter" profile calls for around 150 ppm? Of course, you can just use the pale ale profile and only go to 150 ppm sulfate instead of 300.)

Since you're starting with 160 ppm bicarb, you will probably not ever want to add alkalinity. You might want to reduce it (e.g., mixing with distilled). You definitely want to get the mash pH right (which is heavily influenced by alkalinity). So focus on that.

Besides mash pH, you're generally focusing on adjusting the sulfate and the chloride and not really worrying about the levels of the other ions.

Note that sulfate/chloride adjustments should be done before mash pH adjustments, since they influence the mash pH.

 

[ncbrewer]

It's ok if they aren't all green. Try to match your numbers to the profile line

I've also been wondering about which took priority - thanks for posting that.

 

[ncbrewer]

I have trouble reading the screen shot, too. But it looks to me like it actually shows a calcium chloride addition - not calcium carbonate.

 

[Hopper5000]

I really like Bru'n Water but my advice is to really only use the color profiles. They don't have as many additions and seem to work out well IMHO. Compare that pale profile to one that has a similar color profile. Less additions is better in the beginning when you are just starting out.

 

[Natdavis777]

Looks like you just need around .5grams/gal of gypsum. Should put you in the ball park of around 100ppm sufates. From past experience, 300ppm of sulfate is overkill, to each their own though. Make sure you have your grain bill put in on the next tab as well as your adjusted water volumes as well. If those are not correct, it will figure up the SRM incorrectly for that batch and your projected pH will also be incorrect.

 

[doublehaul]

Thanks for all the info! Here are some better screenshots hopefully they are easier to see. If you click on the image it will let you zoom in on it. This program is pretty cool. I wish there was an IPA/Double IPA Profile.

#1 is with no adjustments
#2 is with 50% distilled water and .5 grams gypsum. I don't know what I was doing before with the calcium.

 

[doublehaul]

I really like Bru'n Water but my advice is to really only use the color profiles. They don't have as many additions and seem to work out well IMHO. Compare that pale profile to one that has a similar color profile. Less additions is better in the beginning when you are just starting out.

good advice thanks

 

[doublehaul]

Take a look at the projected pH on the next sheet- you want to target a pH of 5.3-5.5 and that's important.
.

Yooper I am at a ph of 5.8. I assume everyone talking about making pre-mash-in adjustments? I always add campden tablets to my water too.

 

[kef300]

These ph values that are usually mentioned between 5.3-5.5 refer to the water prior to mashing, right?


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[Natdavis777]

You want your overall mash to be around. 5.2, not pre mash water. That's why it's important to input correct water volumes and your grain bill before making further ph adjustments (ie acid malt, lactic acid, etc).

I select the beer profile I want ( hop forward, balanced, etc) get my calcium, sulfate and chloride with that profiles parameters, then see where my overall mash ph is at on the next tab. I use RO water so unless it's a darker beer, I'm usually high by a few points so I compensate with either some acid malt or lactic acid to the mash.


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[judsonp]

No, no, "mash pH" is always talking about the pH during the mash process. The pH of the water before you mash in doesn't matter. (The pre-mash alkalinity matters. Water alkalinity + malt characteristics = mash pH. But then, you're using software so you don't need to know about buffer chemistry. Just modify your inputs--minerals, acid, and malts--and look at what the end mash pH is.)

 

[Hopper5000]

You need to enter your grain bill to get a proper mash pH.

 

[Yooper]

These ph values that are usually mentioned between 5.3-5.5 refer to the water prior to mashing, right?


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No. That is the ideal mashing pH. The pH of the water doesn't really matter, as it's the alkalinity of the water (the buffering capacity) and not the water's pH that impacts the mash pH.

 

[Homercidal]

First, choose the style of beer you are brewing based on the color. This, when you add your water chemistry and grain bill, will help you nail the target pH of the mash. This is most critical part!

Then, you can also choose malty/balanced/bitter within that color range, and the spreadsheet will help you choose the flavor ions that will work best for that profile. Adding flavor ions usually also affects the pH, so whenever you add Gypsum or CaCl, double check the pH.

You can set up your water so that the mash water is different from the sparge water, so you can set the mash pH properly for mashing, and set the sparge pH to prevent tannin extraction during the sparge.

I really like the spreadsheet, but it will often feel like a juggling act when you are starting out. Eventually you will get a feel for it and it won't seem as "fiddly".

Personally, my water is pretty high in alkalinity, so I usually use RO water and add minerals for Pale beers, and dilute with RO AND add campden tablets (stupid chloramines!) for very dark beers. I usually have to add some amount of acid (I use Phosphoric) depending on the beer color and my water dilution.

 

[ncbrewer]

Personally, my water is pretty high in alkalinity, so I usually use RO water and add minerals for Pale beers, and dilute with RO AND add campden tablets (stupid chloramines!) for very dark beers.

My water is high in alkalinity, too, but I use acid malt to get the pH in range. Many of the local brewers use tap water with good results. Maybe the alkalinity isn't really high enough to cause a problem - 174.

 

[doublehaul]

Ok, thanks for all the responses. Alot of great info I still need to read through again.

I am about to brew a batch - anyone care to give a sanity check?

It's a pretty standard IPA, 89% 2 row and cara-pils, c40, melanoiden.

I have 4.45 gal mash water
5.25 sparge

I am planning dilluting with 50% distilled water, and adding ~ 1 gram of gypsum per gallon, so like 10 grams (2 teaspoons?).

This puts my mash ph at 5.5.

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[Hopper5000]

That seems about right to me. That pH should be fine but you could get it lower by adding a couple ounces of acid malt. You can also acidify your sparge water with some lactic. However, your method should work fine. Do you have a way of measuring the mash ph?

 

[Homercidal]

My water is high in alkalinity, too, but I use acid malt to get the pH in range. Many of the local brewers use tap water with good results. Maybe the alkalinity isn't really high enough to cause a problem - 174.

Acid malt is a fine option. I generally try to avoid using my water at all, due to the chloramines, but before we had a local RO supply, I'd use it for darker beers. I just chose acid to drop pH, rather than a malt. I thought it made sense for me to have a bottle of it in my kit of tricks, rather than storing the grain.

 

[doublehaul]

That seems about right to me. That pH should be fine but you could get it lower by adding a couple ounces of acid malt. You can also acidify your sparge water with some lactic. However, your method should work fine. Do you have a way of measuring the mash ph?

nothing to measure ph, I'll have to look into that. would you add acid malt in addition to gypsum, or instead of?

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

just depends on the profile you are shooting for and your water. Sometimes one, or the other, or both

 

[Hopper5000]

The acid malt is just to drop the pH down a little bit. You don't really need to add it if you don't want to. If you plug it into your grain bill and look at the pH then you'll see what I am talking about (1-3% of the bill is the usual range so I would shoot for 1% and see how that turns out, usually is only an ounce or two). In Bru'n water there are suggested pH ranges for lighter and darker colored beers. The specific pH will help enzymes perform more effectively at certain levels and make your beer turn out better. A pH meter is really the most accurate way to measure pH. If you don't have one then you probably won't get an accurate reading. Problem is they are kinda expensive.

The gypsum will accentuate hops and give the yeast extra calcium which helps then in their life cycle.

 

[ncbrewer]

Acid malt is a fine option. I generally try to avoid using my water at all, due to the chloramines, but before we had a local RO supply, I'd use it for darker beers. I just chose acid to drop pH, rather than a malt. I thought it made sense for me to have a bottle of it in my kit of tricks, rather than storing the grain.

Thanks. And I'd rather use acid, but my LHBS doesn't carry it. Might pick up some phosphoric acid whenever I get a chance.

 

[ncbrewer]

In Bru'n water there are suggested pH ranges for lighter and darker colored beers. The specific pH will help enzymes perform more effectively at certain levels and make your beer turn out better.

I can't find the different pH recos for light and dark beers. All I find is the range is 5.2 - 5.8, and optimum is 5.3 - 5.5 - these are in the pH comment on the Mash Acidification sheet. Could you point me to where I can find the light vs dark pH recos?

 

[Hopper5000]

Can't open the sheet right now but if you go here

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

and scroll to the bottom of section 2.4 then it's there. Actually in looking at that you should probably be ok at 5.5 although a little lower is better.

 

[KIAKillerXJ]

At the bottom of the mash acidification page

 

[Hopper5000]

I thought it was at the bottom of that page but I couldn't remember and didn't want to give the wrong info...

 

[ncbrewer]

At the bottom of the mash acidification page

Interesting - this explains it well, but it doesn't show up in my version of Bru'n Water. I'll bet I'm using an older version, but I'll at least make a note of this info. Thanks.

Can't open the sheet right now but if you go here

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

and scroll to the bottom of section 2.4 then it's there. Actually in looking at that you should probably be ok at 5.5 although a little lower is better.

This also spells it out well. Thanks much.

 

[Hopper5000]

If you donate money to Martin he will send you the paid version which he updates periodically.

 

[Homercidal]

I don't think I've NOT seen it on any version I've ever had. I've used it since back in V1.1 I think or something like that.

I've heard of people having issues with OpenOffice, but honestly I've used this thing on Excel, OpenOffice, and LibreOffice and I've never had a problem. I always open the security on it. (It should prompt you for any security options it might need to address.)

 

[ncbrewer]

The version I have is only about six months old, so maybe it's the newer version, and they are getting away from the idea of different pH for different styles. It seems unlikely, but the comment on the Estimated Room Temperature Mash pH cell includes "...The optimum mash pH is reportedly 5.3 - 5.5" with no reference to beer style....

I'm using Excel.