First time lager question

[asterix404]

So I have been doing this for over a year now, and I have done about 20 ales and all turned out wonderfully. I now got a chest freezer and converted it into a keggerator and I love it. I now of course can try doing a lager, and I did. My first beer was fairly straight forward, it was a bock, everything went well. I made a starter and cooled the wort for about 3h down to 45 deg along with my starter since this is what I read to do in a book. Well, it was not really bubbling after about 2 days so I raised the temp to about 50, which was apparently optimum for the yeast I used. I used 833 white labs, german bock yeast. It's been another 2 days and there are still no bubbles. I am wondering if this is just how lagers are fermenting unlike ales which I keep at 70 and after 2 or 3 days are bubbling like a wild beast. I am most likely not going to toss the beer due to infection, the freezer doesn't smell bad at all (not even like the sulfur that I was told it might smell like). So basically I am looking for someone to go, the beer is fine, there won't be problems, and the lager yeast just doesn't bubble that fast, or the beer is not good and toss it. Also I am a bit hesitant to break the air lock to test it with a hydrometer but if it will be useful information for this forum, I will do that.

Thanks for all the help!
~Ben

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

How big of a starter did you make? Lagers need a lot more yeast, especially when pitching cold. High gravity lagers like Bocks require a LOT of yeast.

Lagers, when pitched cold, will usually take longer to start and will progress slower than ales. It shouldn't take this long though.

But if you underpitched and pitched the yeast at 45 F then that would explain the very slow start (or non-start in this case). The only time I would ever pitch that cold was if I had the right amount of healthy yeast.

IMO, if you haven't seen any activity there's no reason to take a gravity sample. I'd warm it up to 55 F until I saw activity and then lower it back down to 50 or so. I'd also rouse the yeast after it gets warmed up to 55 F.

Using the Mr Malty pitch rate calculator and a batch size of 5 gal with an OG of 1.070 (I'm just using a typ Bock OG) you would need to make a 10L starter using 2 packs/vials of yeast! See what I mean, big lagers need a LOT of yeast. And yeast is even more important in lagers. EDIT: I also used a yeast production date of December 1st which gives 66% viability. Simple starter.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Also, if you did underpitch by as much I am thinking you did I would go to your local HBS and get a pack of Saflager W34/70 dry yeast (maybe two or more, always nice to have on hand for situations like this). It is expensive for dry yeast but it's a good dry lager yeast. This is the same strain of yeast as the White Labs German Lager yeast (Weihenstephan 34/70). Hydrate/Cool it using the proper method, and pitch it, hopefully at 55 F. Depending on how much you underpitched it may even need two packs (Mr Malty says you should start with 3 each 11g packs for a 1.070 5 gal batch).

EDIT: Oh, and when it does actually get going...expect the stankiest chest freezer you ever smelteded!

 

[Ender]

Kind of like me on New Years Day. Our local Brewpub let me have a big 'ole yeast dump from their lager (that's all they do). Used it to do a Dortmunder which turned out great. Anyways On NY day I made a light lager for my fathers birthday party. I may have mashed too low, but not positive about that. Anyways, I had to large mason jars of slurry from the dort I did. The yeasties inside were still churning and bubbling. I took them out a few hours before and they warmed up and went right to work. Cooled the wort down to 48F and pitched the whole jar thinking they would be working fairly soon. After 24 hrs, the airlock wasnt even showing positive pressure. Waited another 24 hrs knowing that lagers are slower and it was cool temps. After another 24 hrs nothing still. Took a hydro reading and nothing had changed. Pitched the second mason jar and warmed it up to 55F. Another 24 hrs later and still nothing, took another hydro sample and the wort tasted fine and looks like it dropped a bit. Another 24 hrs and some bubbling on top. Dropped it back to 50F and let it go.
Fastforward to yesterday and the gravity is 1.019 and still going. raised it to 60F and hopefully it'll drop more. Still tastes fine, although yeasty.

 

[asterix404]

Thanks for the fast responses. So for my starter, I took 1lb light malt, and with it made about 1L of starter. I also only left it for a day. I am not too good with starters just yet, but 10L, thats like, 2.25g of starter, which would mean that it would take up almost half of the total amount of beer I am making. I suppose a good question would be how do I even handle that much starter and still do a beer? I mean, even at 3g of water in the brew pot, it might or might not cover the grain tea I am using.

I can definitely get more yeast, though most likely not before Saturday. I do have some yeast helper though, I can't remember what it is actually called. Should I warm the beer up to 55, and add that in the mean time?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I don't know what that beer helper additive is so I can't say. I'd def let it warm to 55 or so.

As far as making such a huge starter, I agree that it's not practical to do that. Here's what I do (there are many ways to skin this cat, this is just one): Make a much lower gravity lager first. Something like a Vienna lager or a Helles/Dortmunder/Pils or an Alt. When you rack that brew, wash the yeast cake and use that to make your high gravity lagers (you shouldn't need all of the cake, you should have enough left over to save for future brews).

Just this weekend I'm making a 5 gal @ 1.050 Vienna Lager using 1 pack of Hella-Bock yeast in a 1.8L + 1.8L stepped-up starter. That's a 1.8L starter fermented to completion; settled, decanted, then another 1.8L cooled/aerated wort added and fermented to completion. All done on a stirplate. Then when this Vienna is done I'll wash the cake and use most of it for a Maibock and save a couple of mason jars of yeast for future batches. That's SOP for me and my lagers.

 

[asterix404]

So I did what the wonderful people here recommended and it started bubbling! I am pleased. After I added 2 packets of the lager yeast and let it warm up to about 55 it started going. I suppose my next question would be then, how do I store the yeast cake, or in this case, wash it? I use only hop pellets and they tend to dissolve at the bottom and I am going to assume that I do not want this in my yeast, even though chances are high that it doesn't have any flavor anyway. Basically when you said you wash your yeast, I guess what I am asking is how? I figured as SOP I take some mason jars, and sanitize them, then pour the yeasty goodness into the jar, seal it and store it in the fridge until the next time I brew a lager?

Also should I get a stir plate? I am going to be brewing a lot of lagers at this point since I actually can, and this seems like a good investment, is it?3

 

[asterix404]

So I did what the wonderful people here recommended and it started bubbling! I am pleased. After I added 2 packets of the lager yeast and let it warm up to about 55 it started going. I suppose my next question would be then, how do I store the yeast cake, or in this case, wash it? I use only hop pellets and they tend to dissolve at the bottom and I am going to assume that I do not want this in my yeast, even though chances are high that it doesn't have any flavor anyway. Basically when you said you wash your yeast, I guess what I am asking is how? I figured as SOP I take some mason jars, and sanitize them, then pour the yeasty goodness into the jar, seal it and store it in the fridge until the next time I brew a lager?

Also should I get a stir plate? I am going to be brewing a lot of lagers at this point since I actually can, and this seems like a good investment, is it?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Good to hear it got going.

Look up the 'Yeast Washing Illustrated' thread for all you wanted to know about washing yeast.

If you plan to make lagers with liquid yeast then I think a stirplate is a good investment. I got the one from stirplates.com ($40). You'll also need a minimum of a 2L flask, even bigger would be better for lagers (you'll notice from above that I had to step up a ~2L starter for just a 1.050 lager).

 

[RLinNH]

I am BRewing an American Pilsner this coming Weekend. here's what i did...


mr. Malty called for a 5.7ish liter starter with 2 Vials of Yeast for my planned OG of 1.060. I did a starter with 5 liters of water, and 1 vial of yeast. Weds night, my starter should be fermented out, and I'll Decant and add another 5 liters of wort (5 liters of water and 500 grams of Extra Light DME). On Brew Day, before I add the yeast to my wort, I'll decant if and cool the yeast and wort to 55 degrees and add the yeast cake and 1 more vial of White Labs yeast. Yuh, crap load of Yeast.