First proper cider attempt questions

[EnglishWoodsman]

In the past I've tried making cider, even from wild picked apples I've crushed, but for some reason, my cider always ended up... creamy. Very smooth and rich and it was almost like drinking whole milk in mouth feel, but still alcoholic and apple-y. It was many years ago and I can't remember if I added plain sugar to get the sugar up for the abv or if I diluted it to get more volume, either way I don't know what caused the bizarre mouth feel each time I just know it wasn't good.

I'm doing it from juice this time with cider yeast from a Scottish brewery. The juice measured a specific gravity of 1.062 which apparently will result in ~7%abv which seems quite strong. The cider yeast apparently can go well above this so I'm worried I'll end up with a very dry, strong cider. I would like to aim for a "session cider", ie 4-5% as cider goes right to my head and a pint of regular cider is like two pints of beer for me.

How can I ensure it remains a little sweet, doesn't end up too strong and is carbonated in the glass?

Regarding flavour, I understand sweet apples result in a rather lifeless cider so I'm experimenting with adding tannin and acidity. I'm only doing 1 gallon of cider as an experiment so I am trialling the addition of some Assam tea from loose leaf, the quantity of which I will calculate later, to add tannin but also some floral notes which may or may not get lost. For acidity, just freshly squeezed lemon juice. If this doesn't work out it's not the end of the world, it will have cost me less than a fiver for everything.

 

[Rick Stephens]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-with-pics.193295/
Check your gravity and do a yeast kill with whatever sugar left you prefer. Later posts have people dropping bath temperatures to 82C or under. If you can get the cider to 60C you will achieve full yeast kill leaving it wherever you chose to.

I just did a batch where after finishing primary I added sugars, bottled, monitored carbonization by also bottling a plastic soda bottle and checking it a couple times a day with a squeeze test. When I got the level I wanted I dunked in a warming bath of 60C for 10 and then in a hot bath of 82C for ten and was good to go.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

Thanks! I think I'm going to brew out all the sugar which will get me a strength of about 8.15% if I catch it at an FG of 1.000, them add some juice to dilute it without watering down the flavour but also adding sugar for priming, then bottle it and test it and pasteurise at the right point! I've got an 11l pot which should do the trick of a hot water bath with some level of precision...

 

[Rick Stephens]

The method is a great way to finish up. Can't wait to try it on an Apple Pie cider.

 

[Chalkyt]

Re your ABV. Andrew Lea suggests in his book (Craft Cider Making Page 56) that "In practice it is an empirical fact that dilution of cider up to about 15% (that is, 85% juice equivalent) has little impact on flavour".

As suggested by Rick Stephens have a look at Pappers post at the top of the forum. Also, in recent months there has been lots of stuff on the forum about heat pasteurising and bottle carbonation (for a start, do a search of my recent posts). Basically you can bottle then stop the fermentation by heat pasteurising at about 5 gravity points below your bottling SG to get something like 2.5 volumes of CO2.

Once again, according to Andrew Lea somewhere between a FG of 1.010 and 1.015 will result in a medium dry to medium sweet cider. If you are starting at 1.062 finishing at 1.015 would give you a ABV of around 6% and diluting should then get you somewhere near 5.5%.

Adding juice after complete fermentation will also work, you just need to juggle the quantities to get the ABV you want, "sweetness", sugar for carbonation, and stop the fermentation at the right time..

 

[Dinadan]

them add some juice to dilute it without watering down the flavour but also adding sugar for priming, then bottle it and test it and pasteurise at the right point! I've got an 11l pot which should do the trick of a hot water bath with some level of precision...

Just a comment: the juice you add is fermentable just like the priming sugar. If you miss the right point to pasteurize, then you could get bottle bombs.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

Just a comment: the juice you add is fermentable just like the priming sugar. If you miss the right point to pasteurize, then you could get bottle bombs.

I blew a perfectly round hole in the plasterboard ceiling of my parents' scullery fermenting cherries with this issue, (it was a plastic bottle and interestingly blew up as well as out which I thought would be the main weak spot,) so I'm quite familiar! I will measure how quickly the sg drops with a sample that I'll pour away and when it goes down after the first day, I'll pasteurise. I don't intend to ferment much at all, just enough to make up for the loss during bottling.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

I know I need to stagger the hot water bath to prevent damaging or blowing the bottles, but when I get to the final stage of 65°c (just to be sure I've killed it all) how long should I leave it in the pan for?

 

[Chalkyt]

To help get your head around pasteurising, carbonation etc, have a look at the replies to nanglec's post of 9 November. The replies cover a lot of ground. It seems that carbonation and heat pasteurisation has become a topic of interest in the last couple of months.

Rather than repeat lots of stuff, below is an attachment which I have posted before and which gives some details of pasteurisation achieved using several different temperatures, times etc. You will probably find something in there that is similar to your plans (Method 1 is pretty much what you will get if you follow Papper's method).

Basically, you need to generate 50 PUs (Pasteurisation Units which is a measure of pasteurisation level) to stop fermentation in cider. Once the bottle temperature reaches your desired pasteurisation temperature and is held there for a few minutes and the bottles are then removed to cool down in air, enough pasteurisation will be achieved from the heating up and cool down temperatures. Very roughly, once bottles are out of the water they will cool down from 65C to 60C in about 10-12 minutes and generate the required 50PUs. Cooling from 70C will take about 20 minutes and generate over 150 PUs, so it is quite difficult to under-pasteurise (i.e. fail to kill all the yeast).

Heating your bottles to these temperatures with normal carbonation in the order of something like 2.5 volumes of CO2, shouldn't generate any more than 125psi which should comfortably be handled by bottles in good condition. As always, take appropriate precautions such as eye and hand protection, etc.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

Great document. Reading it I feel I should point out I'm using flip top bottles. I wonder if they'll release excess pressure from the seal? That could be a saving grace.

 

[Rick Stephens]

Great document. Reading it I feel I should point out I'm using flip top bottles. I wonder if they'll release excess pressure from the seal? That could be a saving grace.

Saving grace? Not likely.

Yeah, they leak off pressure sometimes. There are dozens of posts in Pappers long 1000 plus post thread that restart the conversation about flip top bottles and what happens thereafter. The conclusion always is if you over carbonate you will have failures. Period. Those failures will include the rubber gasket pushing out and releasing some pressure in some cases, and in others the bottle explodes. They will not save you from shards of glass should you time things poorly or push carbonation past reasonable. And there are too many variables for a simple quick always true answer. It takes some thought.

What I am saying is based after A) reading everything here and elsewhere so I understood the process and goals, and B) putting it into practice on a 6 gallon batch this week. I spent weeks reading up, there is a lot of information out there. In the end I stayed conservative, monitored very closely how much carbonation I was achieving, and then did a conservative two step water bath process to heat my bottles up to as close to 65C internal temps as I could get while using the least amount of temperature change shock.

Stay conservative. No wishful thinking. You'll be fine.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

I guess I wasn't clear, that's my bad. I didn't mean to imply I will rely on this fact to do my work for me, I will still pasteurise conservatively (cider that's a little under carbonated is preferable to a kitchen that's well cidered - or face that's well glassed).

 

[Rick Stephens]

Clear! And your writing style is a lot better'n mine.

 

[Chalkyt]

There is a post by Beaudoin (9 Apri 2013) reporting that Grolsch has advised that their seals will start to release pressure at 70-80 psi. I understand that some "non-genuine" seals will hold more than this, especially if the bail wires are tweaked to hold the stopper more firmly (not sure if this is a good idea).

At 65C, 70-80 psi is a bit under 2 volumes of CO2, so if you are carbonated to more than this you will lose some pressure. But it doesn't all go at once as the leaking can deveop quite slowly, and of course the pressure drops as the bottles cool and the CO2 gas goes back into solution. So it is likely that even if you get a bit of a seal leak, you should still end up with a lightly carbonated cider.

In his book, Jolicoeur refers to using these bottles, "I like to use beer bottles with a ceramic closure (e.g. Grolsch bottles), as these will let excessive pressure exit and thus avoid bursting". It also lines up with my experience when I tried using a Grolsch type bottle fitted with a pressure gauge to monitor pasteurisation bottle pressure. The gauge pressure seemed to stabilise at around 75 psi (but the seal was in fact leaking) and gave me a false sense of security until the other (capped) bottles reached the BOOM stage. So, in the spirit of self preservation I took an interest in the mechanics of heat pasteurisation and bottle pressure. We do learn from our mistakes!

 

[Dinadan]

I use a lot of Grolsh style bottles as well as regular long necks. The Grolsh style seem a bit more hit or miss when it comes to maintaining pressure. Most times they are just right, but I have opened plenty with minimal pressure, and some with no pressure inside at all. Whereas when I cap long neck bottles they always hold pressure.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

I've seen people talk about having a test bottle in the bath with a pressure gauge. Firstly do I need to effectively sacrifice a bottle of cider by having a pressure gauge attached or can I use a different liquid as long as the pressure is reached, also where can I find a pressure gauge that will go in a beer bottle?

 

[Maylar]

also where can I find a pressure gauge that will go in a beer bottle?

Make one. Gauge screwed into an inch square piece of aluminum, which is epoxied to the top of a capped bottle.

 

[EnglishWoodsman]

I have neither the square piece of aluminium around, nor the capacity to tap a hole in one! Is there another option?

 

[Maylar]

You have to cap the bottle, and drill a hole in the cap. Instead of a threaded plate you could just epoxy a nut over the hole. My gauge has 1/8 NPT thread and I got a 1/8 NPT to 10-32 adapter at McMasterCarr.

 

[Chalkyt]

The pressure on the gauge shows the level of carbonation, so you have to use your cider in the bottle.

Re sacrificing a bottle of cider... DON'T! I use mine for "quality control" once I have decided that the pressure is right for pasteurisation... YUM! (edit note... whoops, the fingers originally keyed in fermentation, of course it should have been pasteurisation)

I made my Maylar version of the bottle and pressure gauge using a Grolsch bottle (see my post of 10 Nov in Nangelic's thread starting 9 Nov) as well as originally using a simple soda bottle with a hole for the gauge in the screw on cap. Both versions are reasonably easy to seal as you are only dealing with pressures of around 30-50 psi for 2 - 3 volumes of CO2 carbonation. It really is a good way to monitor fermentation and carbonation progress rather than extrapolate SG readings taken prior to bottling.

With the Grolsch (or Maylar's) version, if you don't have the ability to drill and tap the hole, I would expect any machine shop, mechanic, plumber etc to be able to do it for you at very low cost. If you google "bottle or brewing pressure gauge" a number of alternative designs pop up. I imagine that some of them are available commercialy or a reasonably competent workshop should be able to make something for you, especially if you explain what you are trying to do.

 

[SiblingCider]

Also first cider batch, also built the Maylar rig (x2) while I'm waiting for primary to finish, and both are holding perfectly on PET test bottles filled with soda. I'll be aiming for 25psi and pasteurizing at that point to leave some of the priming sugar (maple syrup) as a sweetener. I'm dosing the bottles individually this time at varying amounts.

Question: Should I be concerned that the bottles (liquid) aren't at equilibrium (with the headspace) when the gauge reads what I want it to? My guess is no, based on the length of time, but I know there are some smart folks on here. Any help much appreciated.

 

[Chalkyt]

You probably have a bit more head space than ideal but I am not sure it will make a lot of difference as the air space volume to liquid volume looks to be something less than 1:10. You will be mixing the air space volume at 1 atm with some unknown volume of CO2 at around 2.5 atm so the net pressure on the gauge might understate what is happening in your bottles. As this seems to be your first attempt, maybe do a test taste (or pasteurisation) of a bottle first at 25 psi to see if you are happy with the result, then work from there. I wouldn't expect the outcome to be too far out.

 

[SiblingCider]

...maybe do a test taste (or pasteurisation) of a bottle first at 25 psi to see if you are happy with the result, then work from there. I wouldn't expect the outcome to be too far out.

Embarrassed to say that hadn't occured to me. Definitely will now; one at each sweetness level, and keep the test bottles intact until I'm ready to pasteurize all.