First partigyle attempt (IIPA + APA)

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janzik

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<edit 1/18/2010> I'm mashing right now. I'll add a new post to the end of this to show what's going on</edit>

Ok, Here's what I've come up with. I got the estimated gravity readings from Mosher's Brewing Techniques article

80% eff gives me a 1.063 regular batch with this grain bill

Batch size 11 gallon (5.5+5.5, 50/50 split)

Grain bill:
20lbs 2 Row
2lbs 60L
2Lb Munich

I was thinking about cutting back on the 60L/Munich as low as 1.5lbs each, but I'm not really sure

Mashing 90 minutes at 153

My 1st runnings should come out to 1.084
Second runnings should end up 1.042

<edited, thanks Jesse/dkershner>
I was going to mash with 8 to 9+ gallons of water and when I drained my first runnings I was going to stop at 6.5 gallons and start my Big's boil.
<edit>

Then I would drain the remainder (if any) into my second pot and figure out how much more I need for my Small.

As for the hops, I was thinking about running my untested IIPA hop schedule since it shares the OG and a similar grain bill

1oz Columbus 14% at 60
1oz Nugget 13% at 60
1oz Centennial 8.5% at 15
1oz Nugget at 15
1oz Columbus at 15
1oz Centennial at 5
1oz Columbus at 5
1oz Amarillo DH
1oz Centenial DH

For the Small, I'll just use some basic APA hop bill, nothing crazy, actually probably pretty plain, maybe even something mostly late additions.

Both will probably use US05 since I don't feel like making 2 starters for my WLP001, but I could be convinced otherwise (due to the 1.084).

Is there anything in particular that I should know about trying out a partigyle recipe?

<edit> holy **** I suck. I wrote this up real fast when I had a few minutes. I meant that I meant to collect 6.5 gallons if I boil for 60 and 7 gallons if I boil for 90. So I will need to mash with more, oops. </edit>
 

JesseRC

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So for your IIPA, your preboil volume will be 5.5g?? what about boil off?
 
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janzik

janzik

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Damn, I wrote that up real fast. Yeah, I meant that I wanted to collect 6.5-7 gallons (depending on a 60 or 90 minute boil), so I will need to mash with more water. probably closer to 8 or 9 gallons of water, I guess.

I need to re figure out my grain absorption rate, or go with what I have listed in Beersmith already, because I'm usually close with that.
 

DKershner

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Damn, I wrote that up real fast. Yeah, I meant that I wanted to collect 6.5-7 gallons (depending on a 60 or 90 minute boil), so I will need to mash with more water. probably closer to 8 or 9 gallons of water, I guess.

I need to re figure out my grain absorption rate, or go with what I have listed in Beersmith already, because I'm usually close with that.
Do you fly or batch sparge? The volume thing is pretty easy to split up if you fly sparge, and needs to be calculated in advance if you batch sparge. I think it is OK to sparge some though. On my first partigyle attempt, coming up in a week, I am doing a 10gal Barleywine followed by a 5gal Brown. I will have to sparge some of the barleywine, and the brown will be basically all sparge.
 
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janzik

janzik

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I batch sparge. Is there any problem in making this batch like I would any other batch and just collecting enough wort in my 1st pot for a pre boil volume and then a second pot with the remaining sparge? Are the second runnings less fermentable?
 

DKershner

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I batch sparge. Is there any problem in making this batch like I would any other batch and just collecting enough wort in my 1st pot for a pre boil volume and then a second pot with the remaining sparge? Are the second runnings less fermentable?
I am certainly no authority on the topic, but I see no reason why the sparge runnings would be any less fermentable, just weaker (less sugar).

I also think that the way commercial breweries run their Mash Tuns (max capacity), their partigyle 2nd beers are likely all sparge too. Their 3rd have to be.
 

cheezydemon3

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I would have some pale DME on hand in case the second runnings are looking weaker, or if you have to top up on the 2nd brew.
 

AnonyBrew

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1. What is the desired OG for the IIPA? 1.084? (and that's 11g batch size)
2. What is the desired OG for the APA? and what's the batch size? 5.5g?
3. What is your expected efficiency for the IIPA? 60%?
 

bendavanza

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Question relating to partigyle brewing: I did this one, my friend and I were both brewing some big beers, and we each did a second sparge and took those runnings and some LME into an extra kettle. We took the late addition hops from his and my boils (5 min?) and threw them into the weaker wort for bittering hops. we did some taste samples along the way to guesstimate balance and added a little more fresh hops. The beer came out pretty good, and it was a good experiment in recycling but I wonder how effective the used hops were.
 
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janzik

janzik

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1. What is the desired OG for the IIPA? 1.084? (and that's 11g batch size)
2. What is the desired OG for the APA? and what's the batch size? 5.5g?
3. What is your expected efficiency for the IIPA? 60%?
Just as a reference, I generally get 80% eff on my batches and thats how I write it up in Beersmith.

I normally only make 5.5 gallon batches, so what I did was take one of my recipes and scaled it to 11 gallons.

Based on Mosher's tables, he provides a 66.6% to 33.3% split and a a 50/50. I'd like to do the 50/50, so 2 5.5 gallon batches into 2 brew kettles.

I was under the impression that half of my total volume would make a post boil 1.084 5.5g and a post boil 1.042 5.5g. If I'm doing 60 minute boils, I would need 6.5 gallons for each pre boil and if I did a 90 minute boil I would need 7 gallons each (I only say 90 because my original IPA recipe was a 90 minute mash/boil, but I don't care one way or the other what I do here).

Since I've never done this and it's been a while since I've measured 1st running gravity, I'm not sure what to expect to actually happen, but was basing it on Mosher's table.
 

AnonyBrew

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Here's some water volume considerations:

24 lbs. of grain x 1.25 qt/lb. mash ratio = 30 qts or 7.5g mash volume

7.5g - 2.88g absorption (24 lbs. x 0.12g per lb.) - mlt deadspace (assume 2 cups or 0.125g) = 4.495g from the mash runnings

If you wanted 6.5g pre-boil volume for a 60 min. boil you'll need 6.5g - 4.495g = 2g more water.

You could simply add this amount to the beginning of the mash so your adjusted mash volume would be 7.5g + 2g = 9.5g (or 1.58 qt/lb) Another option could be to simply dilute the first mash runnings with 2g of water, saving those sugars for the partigyle batch.


For the partigyle you should just be able to add the same amount of sparge water as you need pre-boil into the kettle. For 60 min. boil if you need 6.5g just simply add 6.5g sparge water, mix well & drain. If you wanted to do a double batch sparge at this point just cut the 6.5g in half & sparge two times with 3.25g for each batch.

Perhaps someone else could chime in on what gravities to expect from this.

I'm thinking this method may not leave you much for the partigyle batch?
 

OLDBREW

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Just as a reference, I generally get 80% eff on my batches and thats how I write it up in Beersmith.

I normally only make 5.5 gallon batches, so what I did was take one of my recipes and scaled it to 11 gallons.

Based on Mosher's tables, he provides a 66.6% to 33.3% split and a a 50/50. I'd like to do the 50/50, so 2 5.5 gallon batches into 2 brew kettles.

I was under the impression that half of my total volume would make a post boil 1.084 5.5g and a post boil 1.042 5.5g. If I'm doing 60 minute boils, I would need 6.5 gallons for each pre boil and if I did a 90 minute boil I would need 7 gallons each (I only say 90 because my original IPA recipe was a 90 minute mash/boil, but I don't care one way or the other what I do here).

Since I've never done this and it's been a while since I've measured 1st running gravity, I'm not sure what to expect to actually happen, but was basing it on Mosher's table.
the way that seems to work is he gives you a formula for figuing out how high a gravity wort you need by adding your two batches (volume x gravity in P) + (volume x gravity in P)= then divide by the total volume. so in you case:

5.5 gals x 20 p wort (.083)= 110* gal
5.5 gals x 10.5p wort(.042) = 57.75*gal

110 + 57.75 = 167.75 total * gals

167.75 / 11gals. batch = 15.25 p gravity wort (.062-3) so 11 gals of 1.062-3 wort is needed.

you may think that you could just drop half the volume first runnings and pull the 20 Plato wort out. But according to his other formula..

Batches split into two equal volumes have a different ratio: ~58% of the extract will be in the first half of the runoff and ~42% in the second half. For example, a 11-gal master batch designed to produce 15.25 °P wort contains 167.75 °gals (11 X 15.25 = 167.75). The first half will be 17.64 °P (167.75 X 0.58/5.5 =17.637P).073; The second half will be 12.81°P (167.75 X 0.42/5.5 = 12.81 P).051.

So according to that, you wont be able to pull even 5 gallons (4.82 gals) of first runnings and stay at or near 20*Plato (1.083). You still need to account for grist absorbtion, tun loss, evaporaton on top of that. You would directly Top Off the boiler for first runnings evaporation water loss with this method with acified water.

My thought is you'll pull around 4 and some gals. at 1.083. with a 062 063 wort then 6++ lesser wort.
So you'd need to collect more then half and boil it down then add extra sparge for the second beer to come out where you are heading.

Maybe this is where his 66% 33% formula comes in. Your first runnings would be 66% of the total batch size, your second runnings would be the 33/34% then add sparge to the second runnings.
The first runnings extra volume would have to be figured in on part of your evaporation

I would think it would be more like 6.25 gals boiled to 5.5 and 4.75 gallon sparge water added to hit 5.5 finished.
What do you guys think?
 
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janzik

janzik

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Ok, I changed up the recipe a little. I wound up going with:

22lbs 2Row
2lbs Vienna
1lb 40L

This would be a 1.066 at 80% eff (my normal rate)

9 gallons at 153 for 90 minutes is for the mash. I'll sparge until I collect 13 gallons. I will try and get my BIG to be as close to the upper 70s preboil, which should get me 1.085-1.088ish after an hour. The rest will be for the small which should wind up in the mid to low 1.040s (probably 42 or 44 is my guess).

This is all guess work based on Mosher's table and we'll see how it goes.

(Some other thoughts/notes):
I made a WLP001 starter last night for the BIG and I'll use US05 or Notty for the SMALL since I didn't feel like making 2 starters.

I preheated my 70qt coleman with 7 gallons of 160ish degree water for like an hour and then reused that water (which was still pretty damn hot) for my mash water

Grinding 25lbs of grain sucks, even with a drill. I don't want to ever have to do it manually. I need to motorize the Barley Crusher.

The new bag of Canadian 2 Row seemed like there was a lot of grain dust. My previous sack of 2 row was Briess and it didn't seem as dusty, but that's probably nothing.

My reason for trying out the partigyle was due to my lack of time to get brew days in. I'm also still brewing in my kitchen (70qt coleman, plus 7.5 gallon pot, plus misc pots to heat additional water). So I can't do 10-12 gallon batches right now.
 
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janzik

janzik

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Ok, I'm really behind schedule. I'm just hitting the first boil, but I wound up doing a bit of blending to fix up some of the Big's gravity.

1st runnings, 6 gallons of 1.088
2nd runnings 4.25 gallons of ~1.045

Between this step, I took half a gallon and topped off my Big's BK, so when you see this only adds up to 12.5 gallons, there was actually 13, but I swiped half a gallon before I drained the third runnings.

2nd + 3rd runnings 6.5 gallons of 1.036

After swapping ~1.5 gallon from the Big and taking 1.5 gallon from the small, I wound up with a 1.074 pre boil gravity. This should finish ~5.68 gallons of 1.085 and the small, er I guess medium will be a 1.047 finishing around 1.054.

I probably could've made the Big bigger, but I had a hop schedule already put aside for something that should finish around 1.085, so that kind of worked out.

I'm going to go work out a hop schedule for the 1.054, which will probably consist of Chinook and Cascade, but we'll see...
 

OLDBREW

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Sounds like you did pretty good bumping the batch to a .066 gravity. Little mix here and there worked out fine.. Great Job!
Like he said "there are many varibles to his formulas"
 

BA_from_GA

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good info on your brew session!! I'm looking forward to doing a Partigyle soon, very glad to hear someone elses experiences.... and successes
 
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janzik

janzik

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Rofl Soper, nice.

I'll update this tomorrow when I have a chance. Thanks for the reminder.
 

OLDBREW

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Janik,
The one thing that I didn't pick up is you saying that your second and third runnings combined equaled 1.036

What were the ph and gravity readings of the last bit of your third runnings?
 

tannnick

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I thought a partigyle was take half of the first runnings that you would have for the second runnings beer. ie, like 5 gallons first runnings strong wort to 10 gal for a normal strength beer. The british would make a mash for really strong wort and then sparge to get the remaining sugars for a second wort.

i did one a while back where i took 10 gal first and 10 gal second and the second runnings was very low, and the first runnings were ok. So you have to reduce the first runnings to inc the gravity and then add the remaining to the second runnings to inc that gravity.
 

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