First decoction - Pilsner

[Invertalon]

Hello everyone!

I need some help with this... being my first Decoction... I am doing a Bohemian Pilsner (100% Pilsner malt, Magnum and Saaz hops, WLP830 yeast(may change)... Will be about 5-6% and 45 IBU).

So I did some research and I think this is what my plan is...

Strike water to reach 143F for the Beta Rest... Let sit for 30minutes, pull the decoction out at this time, raise decoction to 158F and let rest for 15mins before continuing to boil for 15-30mins....

Place that decoction back into the mash, up to the Alpha Rest, 158F... Let sit for 30minutes, then pull second decoction... bring to boil for 15-20mins and then add back into mash to bring up to mash out at about 168F.

Once at 168F, drain mash tun... Add batch sparge water and collect runnings... Then start the boil as usual.

Am I OK with this process or am I wrong with my planning of this? I don't plan to dough in or do a protein rest... Just do the alpha/beta/mash out steps.

Also, typically my mash efficiency for lighter beers has been around 73-75%... Should I expect higher for this one given the decoction steps?

Appreciate any help!

 

[cantrell00]

Looks good to me.

Yes, I see about 3-5% bump myself.

The ratio is typically 1 qt of thick mash per lb of grain.

 

[bmbigda]

I've not heard of raising the decoction pull to an interim temp and resting, then boiling. what is the purpose of this? to extract the alpha amalyse from that small portion of mash prior to boiling?

 

[bmbigda]

I've never been a big fan of separating the beta and alpha as separate steps. I find it too difficult to hit the temps. if you shoot for 143 you might end up at 147 and now you're in kind of a no mans land and have to either throw in ice or just pull another decoction and skip to 152.

don't let that dissuade you from trying. I may be the minority and others are hitting temps just fine.

 

[Gavin C]

Hello everyone!

I need some help with this... being my first Decoction... I am doing a Bohemian Pilsner

Your plan looks solid. There is a thread about step mashing including decoctions in my signature. I'm also brewing a Pils (German) at the weekend and am planning a step mash incorporating a single decoction.

Also if you have not already come across it the Braukaiser has a great video on decoction. I can't link it from my work computer but if you google Braukaiser Decoction you'll find it no problem.

 

[dmtaylor]

@Invertalon, looks great. My one and only comment is that after you return the first decoction to the main mash, you don't need to wait around for 30 minutes. Just let it rest for 3-5 minutes, then immediately pull your next decoction. In effect, the enzymes will be working in the main mash at about 158 F for a good 30 minutes while the second decoction is boiling, which is actually plenty for enzymatic pilsner malt where you've already given it a big start in the 140s prior to that. Save 30 minutes of your life and shorten the brew day, and still get excellent results!

You can expect to hit 80% efficiency or maybe more on this.

Cheers!

 

[dmtaylor]

I've not heard of raising the decoction pull to an interim temp and resting, then boiling. what is the purpose of this? to extract the alpha amalyse from that small portion of mash prior to boiling?

Boiling will destroy a lot of enzymes, so you're giving a little extra chance at improving conversion and fermentability by holding onto the enzymes for a few minutes in the 150s before bringing it all the way up to the boil. It's optional but personally I think it's helpful. It's another case where you *could* skip it and shave even more time off the brew day and still get pretty dang good results. I've decocted both ways, with and without the extra rest, and haven't really noticed any difference that I could discern.

 

[cantrell00]

I've not heard of raising the decoction pull to an interim temp and resting, then boiling. what is the purpose of this? to extract the alpha amalyse from that small portion of mash prior to boiling?

correct

 

[bmbigda]

i just read Gavin's article (great write up) and should add that his direct heat mash setup would significantly reduce the potential for missing temperatures. And as he states, it also provides an easier method of remedy.

Whereas igloo cooler sparge brewers like myself have more opportunity for temp issues, and less options for fixing it.

 

[kombat]

I don't plan to dough in

???

Not sure how that's going to work...

Besides that, looks good, although I don't know that it's necessary to boil the decoctions for so long. Pilsners aren't characterized by a lot of the caramel sweetness produced by the Maillard reactions. Once the decoctions boil, you should be fine to just add them right back to the mash immediately. Have some cold water on hand in case you overshoot and need to bring the mash temp down a few degrees.

 

[bmbigda]

???

Not sure how that's going to work...

Besides that, looks good, although I don't know that it's necessary to boil the decoctions for so long. Pilsners aren't characterized by a lot of the caramel sweetness produced by the Maillard reactions. Once the decoctions boil, you should be fine to just add them right back to the mash immediately. Have some cold water on hand in case you overshoot and need to bring the mash temp down a few degrees.

I think he means he's not doing a 70F dough in rest.

 

[kombat]

I think he means he's not doing a 70F dough in rest.

I've always heard "doughing in" to simply mean combining the grain with the water to produce the mash. I've never heard of a "dough in rest."

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't know that it's necessary to boil the decoctions for so long. Pilsners aren't characterized by a lot of the caramel sweetness produced by the Maillard reactions. Once the decoctions boil, you should be fine to just add them right back to the mash immediately. Have some cold water on hand in case you overshoot and need to bring the mash temp down a few degrees.

I'll agree with that. Another way to save time! Personally I typically boil for at least 5-10 minutes. This pops apart all the starches and thus ensures all the benefits of the decoction. I only boil much longer for deep dark beers (e.g., schwarzbier).

 

[dmtaylor]

I've always heard "doughing in" to simply mean combining the grain with the water to produce the mash. I've never heard of a "dough in rest."

From things I've read and from my own experience, the dough-in rest occurs anywhere from 70 to about 95 F, and is just mixing warm water with the grains to get them wet. I do this when I triple-decoct. I don't actually "rest" there for longer than 2 minutes, but immediately pull the first thick mash for the first decoction boil.

 

[bmbigda]

I've always heard "doughing in" to simply mean combining the grain with the water to produce the mash. I've never heard of a "dough in rest."

yea it's a traditional german step, and if you select "triple decoction" in beersmith it has you do it. Most people dough in at the protein or beta amylase temp step

 

[bmbigda]

From things I've read and from my own experience, the dough-in rest occurs anywhere from 70 to about 95 F, and is just mixing warm water with the grains. I do this when I triple-decoct. I don't actually "rest" there for longer than 2 minutes, but immediately pull the first thick mash for the first decoction boil.

me too

 

[bmbigda]

I'll agree with that. Another way to save time! Personally I typically boil for at least 5-10 minutes. This pops apart all the starches and thus ensures all the benefits of the decoction. I only boil much longer for deep dark beers (e.g., schwarzbier).

me too again, dmtaylor. it sounds like our decoction processes are very similar.

 

[Invertalon]

Awesome, thanks everyone for the feedback!

And yes to clarify, I just meant a "dough in rest" at 95F or so... As far as temps go, I am using beer smith for all my temps and such, but I will be sure to have hot and cold water ready to go if need be. Usually don't have issues nailing my temps +/- a degree or so, but this is also my first decoction so it may be more finicky than usual.

I look forward to brewing this one up... I did an Oktoberfest lager a few months ago that turned out great, but I want to try more elaborate techniques to improve them further. This Pilsner I am also building water up from distilled, to ensure a nice soft "pilsen" water profile.

 

[LKABrewer]

For the first decoction, you want to pull a "thick" mash to boil, mostly grains. For the second decoction, you can pull a "thin" mash, mostly liquid. Remember, the enzymes are mostly in the liquid. Do not boil the mash liquid until your are ready to denature the enzymes. Otherwise, your plan looks good. Good luck.

 

[BrewDawg79]

Only thing I can add is to consider pulling more (extra 10-20%) as many people, including myself, have experienced not quite hitting that next rest temp after decoction added back to mash. If you have ability to step mash the main mash this might not be as big of a deal. Good luck and enjoy the process.